Any movement towards a decision in Limited Optics / Carry Optics?

[Racinready300ex]

7 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

It's the same dumb s*** as the limited min*r stuff. If you try to say H. O. A. or maybe high over all, it changes it

 

 

 

I never noticed that one lol. Yeah I was trying to say on occasion CO shooters have finished with a better score than anyone else in the match when you combine all the divisions.

 

Way easier to say that then the other thing. 

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

I never noticed that one lol. Yeah I was trying to say on occasion CO shooters have finished with a better score than anyone else in the match when you combine all the divisions.

 

Way easier to say that then the other thing. 

so do the same people scared of single actions also get up set over that ?
I mean.. Why does the gun matter ? USPSA has a class system.. If I shoot an XDM and best I can do is B class. I am shooting against guys who can only make B class with an STI.. It doesnt matter if the gun give them an advantage.. Not until you hit GM,,, and then alot of those guys shoot what the sponsors tell them to.
Well unless you are either a grandbagger and shoot your classifiers wth a Jennings and compete with a stratoblaster 4000,, OR the combined results do matter and classes dont.

 

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

so do the same people scared of single actions also get up set over that ?
I mean.. Why does the gun matter ? USPSA has a class system.. If I shoot an XDM and best I can do is B class. I am shooting against guys who can only make B class with an STI.. It doesnt matter if the gun give them an advantage.. Not until you hit GM,,, and then alot of those guys shoot what the sponsors tell them to.
Well unless you are either a grandbagger and shoot your classifiers wth a Jennings and compete with a stratoblaster 4000,, OR the combined results do matter and classes dont.

 

 

 

It's easy to take this argument to the next level though and say why have any divisions at all. If b-class hit factor is x and you make that with whatever gun you're using you're a b class. Probably going to take an open gun to win a match but, you could win be class with a production gun technically speaking.

 

I brought this up on here before and people didn't seem to love the idea of getting rid of all divisions and only having classes LOL

[Schutzenmeister]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

 

 

It's easy to take this argument to the next level though and say why have any divisions at all. If b-class hit factor is x and you make that with whatever gun you're using you're a b class. Probably going to take an open gun to win a match but, you could win be class with a production gun technically speaking.

 

I brought this up on here before and people didn't seem to love the idea of getting rid of all divisions and only having classes LOL

How retro ... Go back 30 years and that's exactly how the game was played!

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

How retro ... Go back 30 years and that's exactly how the game was played!

 

Yep but, people seem to like divisions. I know in the beginning Cooper wanted everybody to shoot heads up. I'm fine with divisions, I'm also fine without divisions. In a couple of weeks I'm going to shoot my limited optics gun in open and just use a big stick because one of the local clubs is having an open championship. I could shoot it in limited optics still if I want as they are recognizing all divisions but, I figure I'll support their goal of having an open championship

 

And in a couple of days I'm going to shoot single stack and probably be the only person doing it so I'll just compare my scores in the overalls. I've come to the point where I just want to shoot what I want to shoot and if there's a division that allows it I'll put it in that division but, I generally just look how I compare it in the overalls regardless of what I'm shooting

[Schutzenmeister]

My point of view as well ...

[BritinUSA]

Stages were much smaller back in Cooper’s days, capacity was much less of an issue. A good revolver shooter could keep up with someone shooting a Colt 1911.

 

Technology and stage designs both changed, higher capacity guns led to higher round-count stages.
 

Splitting off divisions had to happen at some point.

 

Standard was bought in, but it has now become anything but standard. It’s now essentially another custom division, like Open but with restrictions.

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, BritinUSA said:

Stages were much smaller back in Cooper’s days, capacity was much less of an issue. A good revolver shooter could keep up with someone shooting a Colt 1911.

 

Technology and stage designs both changed, higher capacity guns led to higher round-count stages.
 

Splitting off divisions had to happen at some point.

 

Standard was bought in, but it has now become anything but standard. It’s now essentially another custom division, like Open but with restrictions.

Some of this I agree with and some of it I think you are a little bit off on.

 

Stages were smaller in Cooper's day but the original question that was asked was "what was the best defensive gun" and that was one of the reasons he wanted everyone to shoot heads up. That was eventually proven out to be an open gun and no other gun can keep up. But, everybody can't afford an open gun and wants to feel competitive therefore divisions happened.

 

I guess mainly what I'm getting at is originally one of the goals of USPSA or ipsc or Cooper's practical shooting or whatever you want to call it was to find out what the best gun was. Well, we found that out. We also found out that it was prohibitively expensive for a lot of people and if you wanted to keep those people involved you had to have less expensive options and maybe options that were more viable "in the real world" for lack of better terms.

 

Then time rolled on and we worried about competitive equity and more divisions were created

[Joe4d]

9 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

It's easy to take this argument to the next level though and say why have any divisions at all. If b-class hit factor is x and you make that with whatever gun you're using you're a b class. Probably going to take an open gun to win a match but, you could win be class with a production gun technically speaking.

 

I brought this up on here before and people didn't seem to love the idea of getting rid of all divisions and only having classes LOL

yeh good point if you think about it... Could eliminate division, and create more classes,, make the classes a bit tighter..
I just thought it was funny.. Because saying a 2011 is so much better a striker gun cant compete is saying classes dont matter.. but then then who's who seems to also think the overall doesnt matter.. So which is it ?

[Stmark73]

18 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I'm pretty sure it was like 35 then raised to 45, before effectively being eliminated.

Edited 17 hours ago by Racinready300ex

I think you’re correct with the 35oz when CO first started. I remember now, my first dabble with CO was with a GP Xcalibur  with a Burris FF3 on a dovetail mount.

Sorry for side tracking the discussion

 

Mark S

[shred]

35 oz with much debate if it was legal to heavy-up a gun on the Production list more than the +2 oz limit.

 

[Eidoss]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:40 PM, motosapiens said:

 

the issue is that every division that allows custom 2011s is completely dominated by them. if u combine the divisions, everyone except sponsored pros will be shooting custom 2011s within a year or two.  it doesn’t even matter if some smart guys think you will get the same score with a da or striker gun. i have tested my shadow2 back to back with my atlas titan, and i would always choose to shoot the 2011 if the division allows it.

 

i would still like to see people be able to compete effectively with lightly modified duty/carry guns, and for that to happen they really need a separate division where the more expensive and competitively superior 2011s are not allowed.

 

I've been thinking about the whole Carry Optics vs. Limited debate and honestly, merging them doesn't seem like a bad idea. When you get down to it, the difference between SA and DA guns, especially with optics in the mix, isn't huge. It's all about finding that edge within the rules, right?
 

About the dominance of 2011s, it's just how competitive sports roll. If a gun is giving shooters an edge, naturally, everyone's gonna gravitate towards it. Putting up barriers just because one model outshines others seems a bit backward. It's like saying, "This car's too fast, let's ban it" in racing. Instead, shouldn't we be encouraging all the gun makers to step up their game? Innovation is key, we already have Open division for those super optic mounted/comped guns. 

PSCL doesn't distinct between DA and SA guns. Merging the divisions could also make things simpler for new shooters. Less confusion about where to start or what gear they need could mean more folks joining the fun.

[Dr Mitch]

Simplification is the way.

[shred]

I was talking to a friend that doesn't shoot USPSA and he was sort of puzzled by the huge number of divisions and said 

 

"At some point don't you have to say 'it's a shooting sport.  here's the guns that work best, get one and shoot it' instead of catering to every person that shows up to the racetrack and demands a special entry for their Toyota Tercel?"

 

IDK.  Run whatchabrung worked well enough in the old days, but people always seem to think they could win if only they had their special thing and so we get division after division.  That doesn't seem to have hurt growth any but maybe at the cost of diluting competition.

[outerlimits]

3 minutes ago, shred said:

IDK.  Run whatchabrung worked well enough in the old days, but people always seem to think they could win if only they had their special thing and so we get division after division.  That doesn't seem to have hurt growth any but maybe at the cost of diluting competition.

Well said, but that’s also the reason we have a dozen nationals.  Only one national event would be a sign of what is popular.

[RJH]

4 hours ago, shred said:

I was talking to a friend that doesn't shoot USPSA and he was sort of puzzled by the huge number of divisions and said 

 

"At some point don't you have to say 'it's a shooting sport.  here's the guns that work best, get one and shoot it' instead of catering to every person that shows up to the racetrack and demands a special entry for their Toyota Tercel?"

 

IDK.  Run whatchabrung worked well enough in the old days, but people always seem to think they could win if only they had their special thing and so we get division after division.  That doesn't seem to have hurt growth any but maybe at the cost of diluting competition.

 

Well, new guys and non USPSA shooters opinions don't really hold much water

 

The problem with "here's the gun that works best" as we know what works best and it's an open gun. We also know that a decent open gun starts at about four grand and goes on up from there.

 

I like how people throw out the racing comparisons without actually understanding racing. If you go to the dirt track on a Saturday night there's about six classes/divisions. And that's just your one normal local track, you add that up Nationwide and there's a whole ton of divisions. If we are going to do drag racing you just increased the number of divisions again. It would be like saying if you want to go race you either need to buy an F1 car or a top fueler or sit on the sidelines and shut up

 

 

Run what you brung worked in the old days because people didn't know what they do now and were trying to figure out what the best gun is. That's been pretty well hammered out, now it's down to finances and lines that we've drawn. I agree some of the lines might be blurry, but it doesn't really matter.

 

And on the diluting divisions point, even if there's nine divisions we all know that there's only about four or five that people actually shoot any other four or five or just hold overs from time gone by. So if you have an area match with 300 shooters and 270 are shooting the popular four divisions, any other 30 or split amongst five divisions that nobody cares about. You really didn't dilute much

[IVC]

L/O is to C/O what Limited is to Production (less major). Merging L/O and C/O makes as much sense as merging Production and Limited.

 

The only question that I could foresee is whether to allow major scoring in L/O, but even that seems highly unlikely given the trends toward the unified service caliber of 9mm for semi-automatics. 

[shred]

35 minutes ago, RJH said:

Run what you brung worked in the old days because people didn't know what they do now and were trying to figure out what the best gun is. That's been pretty well hammered out, now it's down to finances and lines that we've drawn. I agree some of the lines might be blurry, but it doesn't really matter.

 

There's no reason you have to say "Open is it, go get an Open gun" if cost is that important.

 

Why worry about special tennis rackets or golf clubs or football bats versus just hitting the ball with whatever the rules allow and doing it better than the other person?  Is it possible most shooters don't actually go to matches to compete, they just want to run around and shoot stuff?

 

[RJH]

14 minutes ago, shred said:

 

There's no reason you have to say "Open is it, go get an Open gun" if cost is that important.

 

Why worry about special tennis rackets or golf clubs or football bats versus just hitting the ball with whatever the rules allow and doing it better than the other person?  Is it possible most shooters don't actually go to matches to compete, they just want to run around and shoot stuff?

 

 

No, but it is a competition and people generally want to be competitive. And if they're not competitive they at least want to know it's because they suck and not because they're shooting a revolver against an open gun.

 

I'm not sure what a football bat is, but in a shooting match using something like a single stack gun against someone even close to your skill level versus an open gun would be a lot like taking a baseball bat to a tennis match

 

 

It's also interesting you quoted what a a guy who doesn't shoot USPSA said. I'm willing to bet if he showed up to the match with his Glock and and was told he had to compete head-to-head with open guns he would think that was b******* because he would know that he was outgunned. He would also gripe because he had to spend $4,000 plus dollars to be competitive. In other words people who don't shoot don't USPSA don't really know what they're talking about in the context of USPSA.

 

Now, are you going to win just because you're shooting an open gun, nope. In a match today I shot a single stack gun and finished ahead of a bunch of people that were all shooting open or limited optics or carry optics. But, you get a new guy with a 1911 and 8 rounds and tell him he's got to go head to head against a full open gun and he'll just leave the sport more than likely.

 

Please don't read none of this in a smart-ass manner, I'm not trying to present it that way but, I know sometimes things like that can get lost on the interwebs. Imagine us at a match b*********** and having a good time discussing this because that's the way I'm thinking about it

[shred]

Yeah, no offense.  His answer was along the lines of "If I want to compete, I'll get whatever the best thing is and run that, rather than trying to wedge my Toyota Tercel into the race lineup." 

 

I thought it was an interesting take and reminded me of the days when you shot whatever you had for a few matches then went out and got whatever the hot setup was.  If that changed, you changed.  STI & Para frames came out and the single stack shooters just built new pistols or swapped top ends over.

 

 

A dude with a $400 Glock is going to feel outclassed by customized $2K+ Sigs or Shadow 2 Oranges just as much as Open guns.

 

[Joe4d]

1 hour ago, IVC said:

L/O is to C/O what Limited is to Production (less major). Merging L/O and C/O makes as much sense as merging Production and Limited.

 

The only question that I could foresee is whether to allow major scoring in L/O, but even that seems highly unlikely given the trends toward the unified service caliber of 9mm for semi-automatics. 

What ? not even close,,, 10 (now 15) round mags,,, vs 22 round ? minor only vs major ?   NOTHING like production...  
LO and CO have no difference in things that matter

[IVC]

2 hours ago, Joe4d said:

LO and CO have no difference in things that matter

L/O was introduced and became a very quick success precisely because there *are* differences that matter. It wasn't just a bunch of C/O guys signing up for L/O with the gear they were already using. 

[Joe4d]

they are both minor scored, slide mounted optic, 140mm mag divisions.. whats the difference ? a hair shorter trigger reset and a mag funnel in a 25 round gun ? 
Thats a far cry from the difference between production and limited...

 

[Eidoss]

3 hours ago, shred said:

 

A dude with a $400 Glock is going to feel outclassed by customized $2K+ Sigs or Shadow 2 Oranges just as much as Open guns.

 

The law of diminishing returns!
Even within Carry Optics a $500 gun is at a disadvantage against the Shadow 2s with custom trigger work, lightened striker, thumb rest, and tuned ammo.

If we keep going this way we're gonna make new divisions depending if you reload or not, or how big your optic is lol

[MHicks]

10 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

they are both minor scored, slide mounted optic, 140mm mag divisions.. whats the difference ? a hair shorter trigger reset and a mag funnel in a 25 round gun ? 
Thats a far cry from the difference between production and limited...

 

 

Apparently a big enough difference to show with both divisions available CO is the biggest of all divisions and LO is battling it out for 2nd, 3rd with Open and PCC. It may vary by region but that's before LO has even been made permanent.