lighter hammers

[Joe4d]

Anyone done a lightened hammer install and not really change anything else ? what effect did it really have on primer ignition ? with same springs hit harder ? Allow you to go to a lighter spring and hit the same ?
Kinda wondering what principle will hit a primer harder and if going to a lighter hammer is worth the coin.. I have no use for a gun that wont shoot any ammo, right now sitting at about 10lbs DA and have perfect reliability even with wolf primers

[Toolguy]

The lighter hammers work the best on Federal primers. The concept is that in physics, speed is more important than  weight. The same mainspring tension can move the lighter hammer faster, therefore hit harder. There are upper and lower limits to everything, so too light or too heavy is not good. You have to find the best balance. In my experience, (YMMV), the light hammers don't work as well on hard primers. All this is inter related to the lockwork mechanism of the gun.

 

That is why I invented and patented the RevUp Action hammer kit. With this hammer, unlike all the other aftermarket hammers, the fundamental leverage points have been altered to provide a toggle linkage type compound leverage of the trigger on the hammer. This way you can have a heavy hammer fall combined with a lighter trigger pull. Normally, you can't have both together. The hammer force can be dialed up or down to fire any primers that you have or can get, by using the strain screw. The starting trigger pull is whatever the mainspring is set at to fire a given type of primer. The ending trigger pull is whatever the rebound spring is without the hammer. There is a very smooth ramp down of trigger pull weight. I invented and built a special trigger pull gage to show all this and quantify the numbers. You can see videos of all this on the home page of www.revupaction.com.

Rev Up your revo game!

Edited September 17, 2023 by Toolguy

[Joe4d]

if they arnt working as well on hard primers,, then they obviously arnt hitting as hard. From personal experience I know the foot b formula  is pie in the sky...when it comes to bullets hitting things.  Kinda why I was suspect on the whole light hammer thing... do a foot lb formula calculation and it says it hits harder,,, 
Just go to a bowling pin match if you need a demonstration. 

[MWP]

Pretty much what Warren said above (which reminds me, I need to mail that guy a gun…)

 

I have a gun that’s at 9ish that shoots all the primers, with a factory rebound spring in it. Not sure it could do that without a lightened hammer. Firing pin and spring choice comes into play as well when talking about light hammers and primers close to igniting. 
 

I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone just swap a hammer and not smooth things out while they’re in there- the light hammer usually comes along with smoothing the rest of the gun out. And then there’s some people who can’t shoot a gun with a spur on it. 

[pskys2]

Well I ran stock hammers and 5.5# actions with fed primers with no light strikes for years.  Could go to 7.5# action and light off everything else, never tried wolf primers though.

2 years ago upgraded to the tk light hammer, lightest on the market, and was able to drop the action to 4.5# with fed primers.  Been running all 3 icore guns with same set ups and fed, cci and fiocchi primers since with no light strikes.  

It can make a difference but if you must use the heavier primers, it's probably going to gain you less than a pound on the overall action.  You can gain more by smoothing up everything and going with a lighter than stock rebound spring.

[Joe4d]

far as inside just trying to compare apples to apples,,,  running a 15lb rebound at the moment at 10lbs DA pull. 
Sooo maybe try out the TK hammer at 7.5 

 

[Toolguy]

Try a 12 or 13 lb. rebound spring. Find the lightest spring that returns the trigger the way you like it. Many are running a heavier rebound spring than necessary. That's a quick, easy way to shave off trigger pull pounds.

[practical_man]

7 hours ago, Toolguy said:

The lighter hammers work the best on Federal primers. The concept is that in physics, speed is more important than  weight. The same mainspring tension can move the lighter hammer faster, therefore hit harder. There are upper and lower limits to everything, so too light or too heavy is not good. You have to find the best balance. In my experience, (YMMV), the light hammers don't work as well on hard primers. All this is inter related to the lockwork mechanism of the gun.

 

That is why I invented and patented the RevUp Action hammer kit. With this hammer, unlike all the other aftermarket hammers, the fundamental leverage points have been altered to provide a toggle linkage type compound leverage of the trigger on the hammer. This way you can have a heavy hammer fall combined with a lighter trigger pull. Normally, you can't have both together. The hammer force can be dialed up or down to fire any primers that you have or can get, by using the strain screw. The starting trigger pull is whatever the mainspring is set at to fire a given type of primer. The ending trigger pull is whatever the rebound spring is without the hammer. There is a very smooth ramp down of trigger pull weight. I invented and built a special trigger pull gage to show all this and quantify the numbers. You can see videos of all this on the home page of www.revupaction.com.

Rev Up your revo game!

The RevUp hammer kit has worked out well for me in my 617, which was a pleasant surprise given the finicky nature if rimfires.
 

Looking forward to the next batch of N frame hammers when they’re available. The RevUp works better for me than modifying the stock hammer.  

[Joe4d]

Yeh havent been able to do much with the 617, smoothed it up a bit and its high 10's originally it was over 12.  I put a wolf reduced ms in that dropped it to 9 and gave me misfires. So put it back stock.
I had a rebound spring kit and put the 15 in the 627,,, as I was occasionally short stroking it,, This is my first N frame after about 15 years shooting an L frame exclusively. So maybe the trigger reach is a bit longer on the 627 ?
Before I moved to kansas my plan was to load all my components then sell my stuff, so have alot of 38 spc loaded with wolf primers. but I dont have to shoot them.. 
I would like to try the kit in the 617. 

[ysrracer]

9 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Yeh havent been able to do much with the 617, smoothed it up a bit and its high 10's originally it was over 12.  I put a wolf reduced ms in that dropped it to 9 and gave me misfires. So put it back stock.
I had a rebound spring kit and put the 15 in the 627,,, as I was occasionally short stroking it,, This is my first N frame after about 15 years shooting an L frame exclusively. So maybe the trigger reach is a bit longer on the 627 ?
Before I moved to kansas my plan was to load all my components then sell my stuff, so have alot of 38 spc loaded with wolf primers. but I dont have to shoot them.. 
I would like to try the kit in the 617. 

 

For me, my 617 was more ammo sensitive than trigger pound sensitive.

 

I've found Armscor .22 the easiest to ignite.

[Joe4d]

well so far other than when I swapped mainsprings, mine has been fine running CCI mini mag, Remington buckets, fiochi, American eagle,, 

 

[mchapman]

My 617 runs the factory hammer, extended firing pin/apex, a 11 lbs return spring and a wolf ribbed main spring, all internals smoothed and polished, it runs Federals, cci minimags, golden bullets and eley force with no problems the trigger pull is 7 1/2 to 7 3/4 it varies on a couple of cylinders.

[ysrracer]

23 hours ago, Joe4d said:

well so far other than when I swapped mainsprings, mine has been fine running CCI mini mag, Remington buckets, fiochi, American eagle,, 

 

 

At what double action trigger pull?

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, ysrracer said:

 

At what double action trigger pull?

the 617 ? Probably mid 10.. stock other than the 25 cent flitz trigger job

[Fishbreath]

I haven't tried direct heavy hammer vs. light hammer comparisons yet, but I have found that a lightweight transfer bar makes a substantial difference on my Rugers, so system mass contributes in at least some way to ignition.

 

Unfortunately, the factory option for a lightweight transfer bar (at least I assume it's a factory option; I need to call in with the part number one of these days to see if I get the same item) breaks after a lot of dry fire. I think it's probably possible to get very nearly as lightweight a part that doesn't fail as easily, but I don't have the machining capability to test that yet.

[Joe4d]

transfer bar is a completely different part of the system when it comes to ignition... Its stationary once the hammer is falling and will soak up some of the force of the hammer.. The whole matter at rest remains at rest thing.
Guessing  I am looking at what is the true measure of primer strike.. Momentum or foot/lbs. 

[Fishbreath]

I suspect it's more complicated than simple momentum or energy—primers are shock/impact-sensitive, so some combination of firing pin tip geometry and firing pin speed is what matters.

 

In floating firing pin guns, that suggests to me that the quantity we want to maximize in the hammer is momentum, so that the firing pin gets moving as fast as possible, but the rotational motion of the hammer complicates the analysis beyond my extremely basic knowledge of physics.

 

And of course there's the added wrinkle that the hammer stops against the frame, and that the collision is not perfectly elastic, so a higher-energy hammer may yield more speed than a higher-momentum hammer if the former transfers its momentum more efficiently than the latter.

[pskys2]

21 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

I suspect it's more complicated than simple momentum or energy—primers are shock/impact-sensitive, so some combination of firing pin tip geometry and firing pin speed is what matters.

 

In floating firing pin guns, that suggests to me that the quantity we want to maximize in the hammer is momentum, so that the firing pin gets moving as fast as possible, but the rotational motion of the hammer complicates the analysis beyond my extremely basic knowledge of physics.

 

And of course there's the added wrinkle that the hammer stops against the frame, and that the collision is not perfectly elastic, so a higher-energy hammer may yield more speed than a higher-momentum hammer if the former transfers its momentum more efficiently than the latter.

I'm always amazed that the primer ignites from the snapping of the anvil.  I've wondered is it the heat of the snap or spark such as a flint?

For something so critical I've just never bothered to research it.

Edited September 23, 2023 by pskys2

[Joe4d]

39 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

I'm always amazed that the primer ignites from the snapping of the anvil.  I've wondered is it the heat of the snap or spark such as a flint?

For something so critical I've just never bothered to research it.

primer is a pressure sensitive explosive,,, gets squeezed it explodes producing hot gas and sparks. 

[Farmer]

2 hours ago, pskys2 said:

I'm always amazed that the primer ignites from the snapping of the anvil.  I've wondered is it the heat of the snap or spark such as a flint?

For something so critical I've just never bothered to research it.

You must have one hell of a firing pin strike if you’re snapping the anvil. 

[Dr. Phil]

Anyone done a lightened hammer install and not really change anything else ? what effect did it really have on primer ignition ? with same springs hit harder ? Allow you to go to a lighter spring and hit the same ?
 

 

To answer your original question, yes.

I did an N frame several years ago. I ordered a stock N frame hammer from Numrich and "Carmonized" it according to the pics on this site. I replaced the return spring with a Michulek and re-bent the mainspring for lighter tension. I didn't even polish the internals (just a bit of oil) and wound up with a 7 lb. trigger.

It fired Federal and Winchester primers 100%. 

Stock hammer cut down (if I remember correctly) cut the hammer weight by more than half.

Worked great.

 

[Toolguy]

The Carmonized hammer works great. Mike Carmoney knows revos inside and out. He is also a very good revolver shooter.

Kudos to MC.