Fixed Time and Make Up Shots

[m0dnar]

Let's say there's a fixed time stage with 7 targets available. The WSB only says 7 targets, 14 rounds, best 2/target. No mention of "engage T1 with 2 rounds, T2 with rounds, etc."

 

Could I theoretically decide to engage only 5 targets, but to guarantee 2 alphas on each use the extra 4 rounds from choosing not to engage the last two targets on the 5 I do plan on engaging? 

I don't believe any penalties should be applied because FTSA does not apply to Fixed Time and all the M are NPM. 

 

The only two penalties that I think could apply are either Extra Shots or Extra Hits. But the 9.4.5.1. (extra shots) specifically call out "shots fired in excess of the number specified in a component string or stage". I don't plan on shooting more than the 14 rounds specified and this particular WSB doesn't specify strings or anything. 

 

Then in 9.4.5.2 for extra hits it says "hits on the scoring area of scoring cardboard targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage". Per the WSB, it only says best 2/target will be scored. It doesn't say in writing anywhere that I can find that you're only supposed to fire 2 shots per target. 

 

What does the group think?

[ChuckS]

The WSB is defective. 

 

9.2.4 “Fixed Time” – Limited time, limited number of shots to be fired, stipulated number of hits per target to count for score.

[m0dnar]

Thanks for the good catch. Saved me from some potential penalties. But 2 of the middle targets are tuxedos so if I don't call 2 alphas on both of those, I may as well make it up and play it safe instead of trying to rush to the last 2 targets and not even make it. Let's just say the par time on this one is pretty aggressive. I could probably get it with PCC. 

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, m0dnar said:

What does the group think?

 

I ran into this situation at the Locap Classic earlier this year—a 20-round fixed time stage, IIRC; 10 paper, 2 per.

 

I made it to 16 shots. On the last two paper I engaged, I had 3 hits (A, C, D) and 1 hit (A).

 

Since I didn't fire more than 20 rounds, and I didn't have more than 20 hits, I was scored A, C, A, NPM on those targets, with no penalties.

[motosapiens]

extra shots are calculated based on the stage, but extra hits are calculated per target, so even if you don't shoot all the targets, you shouldn't make up anything that isn't a certain mike.

[ddc]

11 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

I ran into this situation at the Locap Classic earlier this year—a 20-round fixed time stage, IIRC; 10 paper, 2 per.

 

I made it to 16 shots. On the last two paper I engaged, I had 3 hits (A, C, D) and 1 hit (A).

 

Since I didn't fire more than 20 rounds, and I didn't have more than 20 hits, I was scored A, C, A, NPM on those targets, with no penalties.

 

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

extra shots are calculated based on the stage, but extra hits are calculated per target, so even if you don't shoot all the targets, you shouldn't make up anything that isn't a certain mike.

 

I guess I'm missing something here... On the target with 3 hits (A, C, D) why wasn't there an extra hit penalty?

[motosapiens]

12 hours ago, Fishbreath said:

 

 

Since I didn't fire more than 20 rounds, and I didn't have more than 20 hits, I was scored A, C, A, NPM on those targets, with no penalties.

it is unfortunate that your run was scored incorrectly. Unfortunately the wording in 9.4.5.2 is not as precise as it could be, and some people may misinterpret it.

 

You would not have gotten away with that at CO nationals. I guess this is why they keep assigning me and mrs moto to run fixed time stages when we work matches.

Edited August 26, 2023 by motosapiens

[Joe4d]

I dont see anything in the rules that would call for an extra hit penalty in this stage unless there were more than 14 hits total in the stage. Rule mentions total for the stage, not per target.
Scoring is supposed to be about what the rules actually say, not what we want them to say or what we think it means.

I would buy the WSB should have specified 2 per target only,, but it didnt.. so no, no penalties unless there are more than 14 shots and 14 hits.

[motosapiens]

25 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I dont see anything in the rules that would call for an extra hit penalty in this stage unless there were more than 14 hits total in the stage. Rule mentions total for the stage, not per target.
Scoring is supposed to be about what the rules actually say, not what we want them to say or what we think it means.
 

I don't believe that's what the rules say, but I see where there could be confusion.

 

"hits on the scoring area of scoring cardboard targets in excess of the total number specified in the stage)"

 

what does 'specified in the stage' actually mean? not the same as 'specified for the stage'. 

 

we discussed it with troy before the match started and everyone agreed. of course that could change tomorrow, lol.

[Joe4d]

I see no confusion...  With that WSB, no penalty.. 
The right answer if you are having a pre match meeting is to fix the WSB,, not make up new rules.  I imagine your WSB was worded better..  

[motosapiens]

46 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

I see no confusion...  With that WSB, no penalty.. 
The right answer if you are having a pre match meeting is to fix the WSB,, not make up new rules.  I imagine your WSB was worded better..  

that's a valid point that I hadn't considered before. re-reading the wsb in the OP i tend to agree with you.

 

I'm pretty sure our wsb specified 'engage each target with only 2 round each'.  You'd think after reading the darned thing 36 times I would have it memorized better.

[Joe4d]

yeh chuck pointed out the WSB was fubar'ed

 

[ltdmstr]

If a rule is ambiguous, it should be interpreted in a manner that's most favourable to the shooter.  If those in charge don't like that approach, they should change the rule.  Not interpret it on an ad hoc basis.

Edited August 27, 2023 by ltdmstr

[motosapiens]

it's not the rule that's the problem (at least if you read all the pertinent rules). in this case it's the wsb. the rule for fixed time that chuck quote above is pretty straightforward, but it sort of has to be paired with a wsb that states how many hits per target. in a fixed time stage, that number is automatically the max, and anything more than that would be an extra hit.

Edited August 27, 2023 by motosapiens

[broadside72]

In this case, the stated "best 2/target" is the max round count per target for this declared fixed time stage. I am not sure why there is a question here. 

 

You don't need extra shots to have extra hits. The former is applied per stage regardless of what is or is not hit. The latter is applied per scoring target (now only the brown stuff per the rules). 

[Joe4d]

14 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

In this case, the stated "best 2/target" is the max round count per target for this declared fixed time stage. I am not sure why there is a question here. 

 

You don't need extra shots to have extra hits. The former is applied per stage regardless of what is or is not hit. The latter is applied per scoring target (now only the brown stuff per the rules). 

"best" implies there are more than 2..
Nothing in that WSB says 2 is the max round count per target. It only says the best 2 count, in the same manner as nearly EVERY WSB ever written since the dawn of time..
They almost all say,, "best 2 on target,,, " Suddenly in this one case that means Only 2 are allowed ?
As the OPS WSB didnt specify a max shots per target,, and only specified a max total rounds, IAW the actual written rules, and the actual written WSB, you can not score any extra hits.. Only extra shots 

[barry]

https://nroi.org/rules-insights/the-fix-is-in-fixed-time-that-is/

 

 

 

I think this says it all

[TuckerMojo]

See also:

 

https://nroi.org/q-of-month-results/another-virginia-count-question/

[Joe4d]

Neither of those examples have much to do with this discussion..  In fact just reinforce the correct scoring..  No extra hit penalties.. Read the OPS WSB,, 

[barry]

Well if you can't see it I can't help you. 

Good luck to you in the future. 

[m0dnar]

3 hours ago, Joe4d said:

"best" implies there are more than 2..

 

This is exactly what tripped me up and had me show up with 2 different stage plans. Fortunately for everyone involved, it was 94F, 70% humidity, and I wasn't shooting all that great leading up to that stage. I asked for clarification during the stage brief and when the CRO shut it down, I didn't care enough at that point to shoot it the way that would've gotten the extra hits penalty and then waste more time in the heat escalating to the MD. 

 

I do think the WSB was written poorly and contradicts the definition of a fixed time stage. 

 

  

1 hour ago, barry said:

Well if you can't see it I can't help you. 

Good luck to you in the future. 

Your own links contradict your point. 

 

The WSB did not state only 2 rounds per target. It only stated best 2 hits are scored. That could be out of 2 hits, that could be out of 14 hits. 

This exact verbiage was missing from the WSB at my match. That's the verbiage needed to assign extra hits penalties. 

Edited August 28, 2023 by m0dnar

[barry]

"Keep in mind that it’s possible to incur extra hit penalties without firing extra shots, since you could have hit a target in error and have less hits on another target. "

 

Not a rules expert but I belive a Virginia count stage doesn't have to say in wsb that extra hit penalties are applied if there are extra hits the fact that it's Virginia count says that.

[m0dnar]

We're not discussing Virginia Count. Fixed Time has its own definition in the rulebook.

[Joe4d]

On 8/25/2023 at 9:49 PM, ChuckS said:

The WSB is defective. 

 

9.2.4 “Fixed Time” – Limited time, limited number of shots to be fired, stipulated number of hits per target to count for score.

Chuck had the correct answer,, way up yonder.....
Barry is trying to use a rule that assumes a different WSB than the OP had.
You cant use a rule that defines a penalty as justification for that penalty if its not part of the stage.
That would be like enforcing a foot fault penalty because there is a board on the ground,, When the WSB makes no mention of shooting area.
A WSB that simply says,, engage T1-T6...   Vs a WSB that says,, engage T-1 through T-6 from within the shooting area..
In the first you cannot score a foot fault,, in the second you can.

[Schutzenmeister]

26 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

Chuck had the correct answer,, way up yonder.....
Barry is trying to use a rule that assumes a different WSB than the OP had.
You cant use a rule that defines a penalty as justification for that penalty if its not part of the stage.
That would be like enforcing a foot fault penalty because there is a board on the ground,, When the WSB makes no mention of shooting area.
A WSB that simply says,, engage T1-T6...   Vs a WSB that says,, engage T-1 through T-6 from within the shooting area..
In the first you cannot score a foot fault,, in the second you can.

There was a time in this sport, apparently now long forgotten, when folks had enough sense to understand what fault lines were and the automatic consequences of shooting outside the lines.  Now we have to be TOLD to shoot from within the shooting area.  Oh for the simpler days ...