bullet stuck in throat

[MikeyScuba]

I love the FCD.  Probably well over 100k loaded with it.  I load to 1.19 with a 165gr.  zero issues.

[tomjerry1]

Okay, I have checked my loads over and am crimping a little more, .378. I don't think 1.160 is to long for oal. There is plenty of light showing through the cylinder with a light behind it showing through. I have given the thought of using a heavier bullet, got some Blue Bullet 160's, they are .040 longer, so should have a little more to hold on to. I haven't tried them yet, but soon. I am using 3.3 gr of Vectan 9.5 for the 147's( very similar to VV320). What are those of you out there using with 160 gr bullets?

[pskys2]

46 minutes ago, tomjerry1 said:

Okay, I have checked my loads over and am crimping a little more, .378. I don't think 1.160 is to long for oal. There is plenty of light showing through the cylinder with a light behind it showing through. I have given the thought of using a heavier bullet, got some Blue Bullet 160's, they are .040 longer, so should have a little more to hold on to. I haven't tried them yet, but soon. I am using 3.3 gr of Vectan 9.5 for the 147's( very similar to VV320). What are those of you out there using with 160 gr bullets?

Have a buddy who shoots a 929 and used 320 with 160 in 9mm.  Swears by it.

[tomjerry1]

I really like the Vectan 9.5, measures well, and burns good, there is only a 10th of a grain difference between VV320 and Vectan. Would you mind asking him what his powder weight is? 

[Joe4d]

11 hours ago, tomjerry1 said:

Okay, I have checked my loads over and am crimping a little more, .378. I don't think 1.160 is to long for oal. There is plenty of light showing through the cylinder with a light behind it showing through. I have given the thought of using a heavier bullet, got some Blue Bullet 160's, they are .040 longer, so should have a little more to hold on to. I haven't tried them yet, but soon. I am using 3.3 gr of Vectan 9.5 for the 147's( very similar to VV320). What are those of you out there using with 160 gr bullets?

9mm is tapered, I doubt you are getting more gripping area.
Also you need to understand the laws of physics.   The bullets are not creeping forward under recoil. They are staying stationary while the case and gun recoil backwards. A heavier bullet will be more resistant to moving,
All things being equal in your loading techniques,, lighter the bullet less likely you will be to have bullet creep.
If you dont change something else. Going to heavier bullets will make it worse.

[Intel6]

I am using N320 with 160's in my 929, nice and clean and shoots great.

[ysrracer]

On 5/14/2023 at 4:31 AM, Joe4d said:

A heavier bullet will be more resistant to moving,
All things being equal in your loading techniques,, lighter the bullet less likely you will be to have bullet creep.

 

I'm confused. Do lighter bullets creep more or heavier bullets?

[pskys2]

1 hour ago, ysrracer said:

 

I'm confused. Do lighter bullets creep more or heavier bullets?

Depends!

Generally heavier bullets will back out in a revolver due to more mass resisting recoil.

BUT lighter bullets with less bearing surface and longer overall lengths can do so just as easily.   Further plated bullets use soft lead and can hold a crimp profile more than brass cases that have been fired many times and become weak.  And jacketed bullets are harder to crimp deeply without collapsing a case.

I've had best luck with coated bullets with long bearing surface and seated with half of the bullet inside the case.

One of the issues with a 9mm is the tapered case.  I would surmise that the case tension decreases toward the base of the bullet.  It may be one needs to use a roll crimp with a camnelure, and that won't totally eliminate it.  One of the worst I've had was my m29, cut for moon clips, using 240 lrn at major pf

  Even with a roll crimp and a deep camnelure they would back out.  Luckily I rarely shot 5 from a clip!

Edited May 15, 2023 by pskys2

[Joe4d]

I dont think bearing surface comes into play as much with 9mm as it does with other revolver rounds. Although I question how much taper is left with reloaded ammo so maybe it does.
Seems like a die like a Lee FCD would basically create a straight wall. At least as far down the case as the typical bullet sits.
My point above being,,, bullets dont creep forward under recoil. Bullets remain stationary. the brass goes backwards. A heavier bullet resists moving more than a light one. 
With equal hold, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem,
Bearing surface and brass shape can change  things,, Maybe why most revolver bullets have flat blunt noses. More surface per grain of weight. 
Knock on wood, but really dont recall ever having an issue with bullet creep. I have not checked the 929 yet. But with my bulk made 124 FMj's it hasnt been a function issue. Next time I shoot I will see if any move after 6 shots.  Have to check my dies but I think I went to a taper crimp on my 9mm setup when I went to coated bullets.
But I loaded quite a bit of 44 Mag with full charges of 110 behind 180 and 240 gr Berry bullets. I just always make sure my crimp is sufficient to prevent set back when I push a round pretty good into the bench.

[ysrracer]

57 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

A heavier bullet resists moving more than a light one. 
With equal hold, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem,

 

That doesn't make any sense.

[pskys2]

2 hours ago, ysrracer said:

 

That doesn't make any sense.

He means under recoil the revolver moves rearward and the bullet wants to stay stationary.  It doesn't of course but it does retard the movement and that is what causes bullets to creep forward.

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, ysrracer said:

 

That doesn't make any sense.

 Matter at rest remains at rest.. You are still looking at it as bullets moving forward out of the case.. They dont... The bullet trys to stay still and the brass, which is headspaced on the gun moves backwards. The tension of the brass on the bullet has to overcome the weight of the bullet.  Heavier bullet would require more tension.
Or in the event of the same tension,, heavier bullet would end up farther out side the brass 

[ysrracer]

13 minutes ago, Joe4d said:

 Matter at rest remains at rest.. You are still looking at it as bullets moving forward out of the case.. They dont... The bullet trys to stay still and the brass, which is headspaced on the gun moves backwards. The tension of the brass on the bullet has to overcome the weight of the bullet.  Heavier bullet would require more tension.
Or in the event of the same tension,, heavier bullet would end up farther out side the brass 

 

You said:

 

A heavier bullet resists moving more than a light one. 

 

So your first statement says a heavier bullet isn't going to creep out as much as a light one.

With equal hold, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem,

 

But then your second statement says a heavy bullet is more likely to have the problem.

 

Aren't those opposite statements?

 

[Dr. Phil]

The law of inertia says no. The case is moving backward. The bullet (at rest) tends to stay at rest. Heavier bullet, more inertial force to remain at rest.

[ysrracer]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Phil said:

The law of inertia says no. The case is moving backward. The bullet (at rest) tends to stay at rest. Heavier bullet, more inertial force to remain at rest.

Then why

 

With equal hold, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem,

[Vic]

It's your reading comprehension that doesn't make sense.

[Dr. Phil]

Inertia would affect the heavier object more.

Velocity would also affect the heavier object more. 

But not gravity?

[Joe4d]

gravity isnt relevant,
You still arnt getting what happens during so called bullet cre

3 hours ago, ysrracer said:

 

You said:

 

A heavier bullet resists moving more than a light one. 

 

So your first statement says a heavier bullet isn't going to creep out as much as a light one.

With equal hold, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem,

 

But then your second statement says a heavy bullet is more likely to have the problem.

 

Aren't those opposite statements?

 

 Thats not what my first statement says at all. 
and no those arnt opposite statements,, you're just not understanding the first and how it applies to the problem. .

 

[ysrracer]

A heavier bullet resists moving more than a light one. 

 

To me, this means that a heavier bullet doesn't creep as much as a lighter bullet? Do I have that correct?

 

With equal hold, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem,

 

Here you say, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem. Is the problem that the bullet creeps?

 

So which is it? Does a heavier bullet resist creeping more than a light one? Or is a heavy bullet more likely to have the problem (bullet creep)?

[Joe4d]

No you dont have it right... You are missing basic knowledge.. cant help you

[gargoil66]

7 hours ago, ysrracer said:

A heavier bullet resists moving more than a light one. 

 

To me, this means that a heavier bullet doesn't creep as much as a lighter bullet? Do I have that correct?

 

With equal hold, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem,

 

Here you say, a heavy bullet will be more likely to have the problem. Is the problem that the bullet creeps?

 

So which is it? Does a heavier bullet resist creeping more than a light one? Or is a heavy bullet more likely to have the problem (bullet creep)?

 

PK went through this and not J4D.

 

Newtonian physics.  A bigger bullet has more mass than a smaller one and thus needs more force to move it.  So, under recoil it stays in its place in the cylinder for a longer period of time than a lighter bullet as the revolver (and the cartridge case) moves to the rear.  

 

Also, a bigger bullet tends to have more bearing surface so the crimp has more of the bullet to hold on to but this assumes the case is straight walled which a 9mm isn't.

 

Bottom line though is what you said which is give it enough crimp.   I imagine if someone is really concerned about it they could find some 9mm bullets with cannelures and give them a good heavy crimp.  Personally I have never had a problem with 9mm using a Dillon taper crimp die and giving it a decent taper crimp.

 

GG

 

 

 

 

[mmc45414]

1 hour ago, gargoil66 said:

Also, a bigger bullet tends to have more bearing surface so the crimp has more of the bullet to hold on to but this assumes the case is straight walled which a 9mm isn't.

 

 

 

 

9mm is externally tapered, but the interior of the case would be more or less straight if it was formed around a mandrel that needs to get pulled out.

 

I think what this comes down to is that the heavier bullet stays more stationary, but the weight increases at a lower rate than the bearing surface goes up.  In pistols I have more concern with setback with heavier bullets. 

 

Might also be a factor of pressure and burn rate, a slower powder is going to optimize the heavier bullet, and deliver a smoother acceleration curve.

[gargoil66]

4 minutes ago, mmc45414 said:

9mm is externally tapered, but the interior of the case would be more or less straight if it was formed around a mandrel that needs to get pulled out.

 

I think what this comes down to is that the heavier bullet stays more stationary, but the weight increases at a lower rate than the bearing surface goes up.  In pistols I have more concern with setback with heavier bullets. 

 

Might also be a factor of pressure and burn rate, a slower powder is going to optimize the heavier bullet, and deliver a smoother acceleration curve.

MMC:

 

I am not a fan of 9mm's although I have a couple of 9mm blasters.  When fired, the case expands to fit the chamber and I believe this action makes them slightly tapered internally.   Mute point because a taper crimp die will straighten out the brass when it crimps. 

 

Roger that on pistols.  Good crimp deals with them like it does with the revolver.  

 

Problem with slow powders is fully burning the slow powder and normally a lower velocity.  No free lunch with any of this stuff.

 

GG 

 

 

[pskys2]

38 minutes ago, gargoil66 said:

MMC:

 

I am not a fan of 9mm's although I have a couple of 9mm blasters.  When fired, the case expands to fit the chamber and I believe this action makes them slightly tapered internally.   Mute point because a taper crimp die will straighten out the brass when it crimps. 

 

Roger that on pistols.  Good crimp deals with them like it does with the revolver.  

 

Problem with slow powders is fully burning the slow powder and normally a lower velocity.  No free lunch with any of this stuff.

 

GG 

 

 

Free Lunch where?  I'm hungry already!

[tomjerry1]

Okay guys, stop teasing me with a different cylinder/bullet? Let me get this 9mm stuff figured out. I got some 160gr Blue Bullets, want to work a load and am looking to see what you all are having luck with. Right now, I have a 147gr Blue Bullet at 1.17 oal, Crimped to .177, Federal SPP, 3.3gr Vectan 9.5(about the same as VV 320), PF 128. 

Forgot, the bullets are 38/357

Edited May 29, 2023 by tomjerry1
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