What has SIG done to accuracy?

[mpeltier]

I mean really SIG, Did you forget the formula to provide an accurate pistol? 

 

I have an enviable number of SIG Pistols, and have been shooting them for years. Had an original German SIG X5 L1 that was exceptionally accurate. And almost a dozen more that are very accurate. A P210 Target that shoots in my hands 1-1/2" groups, an M17 with RMR that does about the same, A P220 Legion 10mm that will hold its own with them and an AXG and P226 Legion, yup, very accurate pistols.

 

Recently put together a P320 X5 TXG with a Romeo2. That Dogs a heap of %&#^. Only thing comes close to a reasonable group are 147gr factory loads and they are still double the size of any other of my SIGS. Read the thread on the X5 Legion accuracy problems. Also read many threads of SIGS much newer than most of my others with less than stellar accuracy. It seems theres a time period in the last few years that something changed at SIG.

 

Anybody else have any experiences good or bad with SIG and a date of Manufacture regarding accuracy of their production guns?

 

Edited March 5, 2023 by mpeltier

[Stuey]

I think that is going to be case for most mass produced guns.  Unless you are buying a gun that was hand made from beginning to end, you are going to see this.  I have an AXG Pro and the results are the same.  My accuracy only got better when I installed a BarStol barrel in it.

[Boomstick303]

43 minutes ago, mpeltier said:

Recently put together a P320 X5 TXG with a Romeo2. That Dogs a heap of %&#^. Only thing comes close to a reasonable group are 147gr factory loads and they are still double the size of any other of my SIGS.

 

This is a well documented issue with Sig X5 P320 Barrels using 147 gr bullets.  It is mentioned on many threads on this forum.  I have done rather extensive testing and 147 gr bullets would not group well until I sped the up considerably, which kinda of defeats the use of 147 Gr bullets.  You will also see a rather noticeable change in POI based on bullet velocity as well.  Something I did not care for.

 

I have found that velocity is key for Sig P320 barrels to group decent.  124/5 gr bullets in the 1100-1150 fps would give me tennis ball groups or smaller at 15 yds.  I have also found the shorter Slide/Barrel combos lead to better barrel lock up which gives you better accuracy.  

 

I have heard rumors that Sig did some changes to the barrel mostly to do with Chamber support, and I have heard one claim they fixed the accuracy issues, but I have not personally seen either case.  For my P320 AXG Pro I never shot the stock barrel as I installed a Barstow immediately.   

 

The Barstow barrel fixes all of it.  Very accurate, POI does not shift when switching to different ammo velocities.  

 

My current setup of the P320 AXG Pro with the Barstow barrel, The Sig Armorer Trigger, and 14# recoil spring is by far the most accurate 320 I own.   I do not get any dot deflection when dry firing which without a magazine installed is also an issue with P320s.  I do have to wonder if that play in the slide/barrel assembly (dot movement when pulling the trigger) does lead to some of the accuracy issues.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Miranda]

Hi boomstick303,

 

I think I am not going to help you much for sig accuracy...

your groups are similar to my results with my hand held 228...

and somewhat the same arc for weight of bullet.

The lighter being more 'open.'

 

a fast 125-ish bullet seems about the best...

and... faster should get increased accuracy no matter what.

 

so If Sig made impressively accurate pistols...

I do not have one of them  or

Sig got better for a while and has gone back a bit.

 

your Barstow barrels comment has my attention.

gunna look into that.

 

miranda

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Miranda
forgot my name

[Boomstick303]

26 minutes ago, Miranda said:

so If Sig made impressively accurate pistols...

I do not have one of them  or

 

Unless its one of their "Match" guns which I have never shot, I have yet to shoot any stock Sig that is what I consider to better than average in the accuracy department.  My groups with the higher velocity bullets was adequate for USPSA.  That's about it.  I am going to play with this New P320 AXG Pro, which shows a lot of promise all be it with an aftermarket Barstow barrel, but the gun is a joy to shoot so I will see how it does in CO this year.  In initial testing and practice my groups are better at speed than the 5" P320s with stock barrels.  

 

I may keep it as my only CO gun as I am looking to shoot LO when it starts up in May.  I love shooting my 2011 way too much!

 

I have given some consideration to ditching the P320 platform all together, but there are things I still like about it and I am heavily invested in it to date.  Thant might change by the end of the season.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Boomstick303

[Boomstick303]

Some other considerations here is that is any Poly / poly highbred gun ever really that accurate.  I ask because I do not know.  If you look at most Poly gun designs there is very limited rail real estate.  I think more rail real estate leads to more accurate guns.  On the P320s the rail space is extremely limited.  If you look at how the slide rides on the FCU the longer the gun the more slide deflection you get.  I believe that deflection effects barrel to slide lock up.  

 

I have noted my shooter P320s are always more accurate than my 5" variants.  Until I built this AXG P320 Pro they way I did my P320 Compact was by far my most accurate P320.    So I think there is something to that deflection theory.  

 

[Boomstick303]

31 minutes ago, Miranda said:

your Barstow barrels comment has my attention.

gunna look into that.

 

I think part of it the barrel itself.  But most likely most of it is due to the fact the barrel is fitted to the gun when you buy the Gun smith fitted version.  

 

[Dicktater_Pete]

Sig has had a lot of unhappy people terming themselves beta testers on different sig products over the past several years.  P938, p320, p365, all sorts of issues.  I had the opportunity to handle and shoot a rack of 20-30 p320 pistols awhile back with 124 grain ball.  Much crap as I give Glock, the p320s would wish to arrive at the Glock's accuracy and reliability.   

[usmc1974]

Isn't this the gun they gave up the beretta 92 for n the military? Over a Glock19. Don't get mad, I'm just asking.

[mpeltier]

SIG can make accurate guns. I am just flustered that many X5's, a competition gun that was an accurate gun, is now a pile of dung without having to throw more $$ at it and crossing your fingers it gets better. Im tempted to swap slide assemblies with my M17 and see what happens. My M17 is far superior in its ability to shoot accurately. Ive read all the threads about the X5 issues. Mine is one of the several that seems to prefer 147's. There were other posters who's gun favored them also. My M17 likes everything and my 124's shoot great. Same ammo that shoots 1-1/4" groups in it were almost 6" in the X5. 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by mpeltier

[GJM]

The problem isn't the barrel it is the 320 Legion slide. Original 320 X5 pistols shot great. Substituting an original X5 slide solves the accuracy problems. Also the GGI Lockwood slides shoot great. 
 

First picture is my first five rounds of PMC 124 freestyle at 20 yards from a new Lockwood, second shot is after adjusting the R3 Max. 

[RangerTrace]

Nothing wrong with that.  

[usmc1974]

3 hours ago, GJM said:

The problem isn't the barrel it is the 320 Legion slide. Original 320 X5 pistols shot great. Substituting an original X5 slide solves the accuracy problems. Also the GGI Lockwood slides shoot great. 
 

First picture is my first five rounds of PMC 124 freestyle at 20 yards from a new Lockwood, second shot is after adjusting the R3 Max. 

That is very good shooting, But paying that much for a pistol, you should not have to substitute anything. I mean that's just my opinion.

[RangerTrace]

It's all relative.  Some people pay over 5K for a custom 1911 that shoots a 1" group at 25.  

[usmc1974]

41 minutes ago, RangerTrace said:

It's all relative.  Some people pay over 5K for a custom 1911 that shoots a 1" group at 25.  

This is very true! Of course to be honest I don't think I could shoot the 1" group standing freestyle at 25 yds with any handgun out there. I do good to hit 3" at 25 yds. I've seen people paid Upwards of $10,000 for a handgun. I didn't give $10,000 from my Truck lol

 

With my smith and Wesson M&P metal and a Holosun 507c green. I did put 5 out of 5 in the A. zone of an IPSC target head. Made me happy.

Edited March 6, 2023 by usmc1974

[Tampa-XD45]

19 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

This is a well documented issue with Sig X5 P320 Barrels using 147 gr bullets.  It is mentioned on many threads on this forum.  I have done rather extensive testing and 147 gr bullets would not group well until I sped the up considerably, which kinda of defeats the use of 147 Gr bullets.  You will also see a rather noticeable change in POI based on bullet velocity as well.  Something I did not care for.

 

I have found that velocity is key for Sig P320 barrels to group decent.  124/5 gr bullets in the 1100-1150 fps would give me tennis ball groups or smaller at 15 yds.  I have also found the shorter Slide/Barrel combos lead to better barrel lock up which gives you better accuracy.  

 

I have heard rumors that Sig did some changes to the barrel mostly to do with Chamber support, and I have heard one claim they fixed the accuracy issues, but I have not personally seen either case.  For my P320 AXG Pro I never shot the stock barrel as I installed a Barstow immediately.   

 

The Barstow barrel fixes all of it.  Very accurate, POI does not shift when switching to different ammo velocities.  

 

My current setup of the P320 AXG Pro with the Barstow barrel, The Sig Armorer Trigger, and 14# recoil spring is by far the most accurate 320 I own.   I do not get any dot deflection when dry firing which without a magazine installed is also an issue with P320s.  I do have to wonder if that play in the slide/barrel assembly (dot movement when pulling the trigger) does lead to some of the accuracy issues.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Did the Barstow barrel require much fitting?

[mpeltier]

8 hours ago, GJM said:

The problem isn't the barrel it is the 320 Legion slide. Original 320 X5 pistols shot great. Substituting an original X5 slide solves the accuracy problems. Also the GGI Lockwood slides shoot great. 
 

First picture is my first five rounds of PMC 124 freestyle at 20 yards from a new Lockwood, second shot is after adjusting the R3 Max. 

 

Mines NOT a Legion. At least I was led to believe its not?

 

Its a X5 exchange kit with a TXG grip module. Does SIG make slides that are different for each or the same for both? 

 

I would have been very happy were the accuracy as good as my M17. 

 

My P210 Target is exceptional and its a production gun. Even my M&P 2.0's (a 9mm and a 40) run circles around this thing with regards to accuracy.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by mpeltier

[GJM]

Those that had original 320 X5 pistols will recall they shot exceptionally well, and had a break in period, where the slide would stop just short of fully going into battery when new. People didn't like that. My suspicion is that Sig wanted to do away with that when they introduced the 320 Legion, and in the process negatively impacted accuracy. 
 

A friend of mine went to Barsto barrels fit by the Sig Armorer, and they didn't do much better. I don't recall why, but he and then my wife started buying X5 slides from Osage, sticking the Legion barrel in, and it solved the accuracy problems. I am aware of at least s dozen pistols where the X5 slide fixed the problems. That was particularly painful for the 320 Max I had with the nice serrations and direct milled R3 Max.

 

Lately, my wife and a number of friends have the 4.7 Lockwood slides, and they shoot extremely well. 
 

A friend who lives in Oregon, told me a local USPSA shooter is welding up Legion slides and getting a good result. Poor man's Lockwood!
 

I agree Sig messed up with this -- there is no reason a 365X should outshoot their expensive CO competition pistols. 

[cheby]

29 minutes ago, GJM said:

Those that had original 320 X5 pistols will recall they shot exceptionally well, and had a break in period, where the slide would stop just short of fully going into battery when new. People didn't like that. My suspicion is that Sig wanted to do away with that when they introduced the 320 Legion, and in the process negatively impacted accuracy. 
 

A friend of mine went to Barsto barrels fit by the Sig Armorer, and they didn't do much better. I don't recall why, but he and then my wife started buying X5 slides from Osage, sticking the Legion barrel in, and it solved the accuracy problems. I am aware of at least s dozen pistols where the X5 slide fixed the problems. That was particularly painful for the 320 Max I had with the nice serrations and direct milled R3 Max.

 

Lately, my wife and a number of friends have the 4.7 Lockwood slides, and they shoot extremely well. 
 

A friend who lives in Oregon, told me a local USPSA shooter is welding up Legion slides and getting a good result. Poor man's Lockwood!
 

I agree Sig messed up with this -- there is no reason a 365X should outshoot their expensive CO competition pistols. 

He is actually welding up barrels, not the slides. It does solve the issue. He worked on two of my guns. I do need to tap the back of the slide sometimes on make ready because they are very tight now. Similar to my X5 slide (Not Legion).

Also, the Gray guns slides are bullseye accurate but they do require a break in period - over 300rds. Mine are modern classic, not Lockwood.  

Edited March 6, 2023 by cheby

[Miranda]

off to see what Grey guns offers...

 

miranda

[RangerTrace]

The complete Lockwood pistol is a different animal.  They fit the barrel to the slide.  I have their AXG carry pistol and the accuracy is not the same.  The barrel fit is not as tight, so I fit a Barsto barrel to it.  Still not as accurate as the LW pistol.

[oddjob]

GJM,

 

Does Osage still carry the slide?  I looked on the site and was confused as to which one.

 

thanks...

[GJM]

5 minutes ago, oddjob said:

GJM,

 

Does Osage still carry the slide?  I looked on the site and was confused as to which one.

 

thanks...

I believe this is it, although it shows out of stock. Maybe a want to buy post will turn one up. 

https://osagecountyguns.com/sig-sauer-p320-x5-stripped-slide-9mm.html

 

 

 

[jpm2953]

my X-five legion was terrible in the accuracy department. 4-5" groups at 15 yards.  My CZ shadows shoot circles around it. Not even a comparison. 

 

I have a couple Sig P226's that are stupid accurate. The P320 Legion was a disappointment. 

[Boomstick303]

20 hours ago, Tampa-XD45 said:

Did the Barstow barrel require much fitting?

I purchased two barrels at the same time that.  One for my AXG Pro and one for my X5 Legion.  I purchased the gun smith fit options to where Barstow indicates the barrel must be fit by a Gun Smith. The Gun Smith indicated the AXG pro took a lot of work to fit, where the 5” Legion barrel did not take much work to fit. 

 

I am not sure if there is a difference in fit for the "drop in" version of the Barstow barrels.  Maybe the AXG would require fitment more often that the X5 (5") barrels would.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Boomstick303