Limited Optics - Minor Only vs. Major/Minor scoring

[lroy]

8 hours ago, pskys2 said:

Caliber or popularity, or lack thereof, of a cartridge is irrelevant. Set division requirements on the largest similar firearm platform possible and let the competitors find the best combination.  

 

Eh, I disagree. The popularity of 9mm 2011s is the sole reason this is even a thing. They sell a lot and people want to shoot them. Hence bringing them in somewhere.

 

Setting up a division for a gun (40 optic) that doesn't exist and nobody wants (sanslimites shooters) to create artificial demand is silly.

 

And I say this as someone who shot 40 open with no comp and a slide ride. Lol

 

What they could do is make it minor only, see how it stacks up against Co. If there s no difference then just combine them.

[YVK]

Based on the results of these surveys, 900 members of 34,000 organization want to shoot them. STI's annual production is about 15K, which is a drop in a 4 mil handguns  yearly produced bucket (not counting imported). Glock 19 outsells all 9mm 2011 put together by a metric ton but nobody is rushing to create a division where G19 will be competitive. I don't see huge popularity of these things but I do see a lot of media coverage. Those 2011s are sexy.

 

Edited February 20, 2023 by YVK

[RJH]

16 minutes ago, YVK said:

Based on the results of these surveys, 900 members of 34,000 organization want to shoot them. STI's annual production is about 15K, which is a drop in a 4 mil handguns  yearly produced bucket (not counting imported). Glock 19 outsells all 9mm 2011 put together by a metric ton but nobody is rushing to create a division where G19 will be competitive. I don't see huge popularity of these things but I do see a lot of media coverage. Those 2011s are sexy.

 

 

Nobody's looking for that division because nobody actually wants to shoot a Glock 19 in competition

[Racinready300ex]

27 minutes ago, YVK said:

Based on the results of these surveys, 900 members of 34,000 organization want to shoot them. STI's annual production is about 15K, which is a drop in a 4 mil handguns  yearly produced bucket (not counting imported). Glock 19 outsells all 9mm 2011 put together by a metric ton but nobody is rushing to create a division where G19 will be competitive. I don't see huge popularity of these things but I do see a lot of media coverage. Those 2011s are sexy.

 

 

Of course we could apply that logic across the divisions. So we could probably nuke Open, Limited, L10, and revo. Probably PCC too, because most people would rather just have a rifle caliber rifle. Prod, CO and SS can probably stay since they likely out sell G19's. 

 

It's really not just 2011's. 320 legions and rivals come with magwells, that'd put them in LO instead of open. DWX, CZ and Tanfo have SAO guns too. Sig released one not long ago. The Prodigy and the Girsan are making 2011's way cheaper vs a Staccato or a custom gun. Combined these might top the G19 sales. 

 

I wouldn't oppose a compact division for the G19, it'd be fun. But, I can shoot CCP in IDPA. 

[YVK]

25 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Nobody's looking for that division because nobody actually wants to shoot a Glock 19 in competition

 

I think that this is an assertion that's worth testing in provisional divisions. I started CO with G19x and enjoyed it quite a bit but when the gun is not competitive, you end up making some changes. IPSC at least tested this notion in practice, as opposed to leaving it to the web-based discussions.

5 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Of course we could apply that logic across the divisions. So we could probably nuke Open, Limited, L10, and revo. Probably PCC too,

 

I wouldn't oppose a compact division for the G19, it'd be fun. But, I can shoot CCP in IDPA. 

 

Open and Limited are existing legacy divisions that count for over 1/3 of participation. They are uniquely different from other divisions (unlike LO vs CO) so they have enough merits to stay. I don't think anybody would say a word if L10 was nuked, and probably a revo too except for 100 people who shoot it in the country. 

I looked at CCP rules. 39 oz weight limit. Compact and Carry, lol. 

[GigG]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:47 AM, MikeRussell said:

Either make it major/minor or just allow SAO in CO.

 

Seems they couldn't add SAO for a year to CO because that would be a rules change.

Edited February 20, 2023 by GigG

[RJH]

38 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

. I started CO with G19x and enjoyed it quite a bit but when the gun is not competitive, you end up making some changes. 

 

There's a guy right here on these forums that made GM with a Glock 26. A 19x is a full-blown race gun in comparison, I'm not buying you're not competitive argument. People just don't like shooting that s*** LOL

[Racinready300ex]

31 minutes ago, YVK said:

Open and Limited are existing legacy divisions that count for over 1/3 of participation. They are uniquely different from other divisions (unlike LO vs CO) so they have enough merits to stay. I don't think anybody would say a word if L10 was nuked, and probably a revo too except for 100 people who shoot it in the country. 

 

 

Sure, but as you pointed out they are a vary tiny fraction of the overall gun market. If they are considered successful then there is no reason LO couldn't also be just as successful. In fact, I think if done right LO would make up more or our participation that Limited and Open combined once more people leave them for LO. Limited is already on it's death bed. 

 

Many of our divisions are based on equipment completely irrelevant to the outside world. Open and Limited are great examples. I'm not sure that's a great place to be for the long term. 

 

38 minutes ago, YVK said:

 

I looked at CCP rules. 39 oz weight limit. Compact and Carry, lol. 

 

Is that worse than 59 oz Prod or CO. What about all the Limited and open guns north of 50 oz? When I shoot CCP I run a P01 with a WML (IDPA shoots in the dark) it weights under 30 oz and I'm carrying it now. lol. Imagine competing with a gun that's even a little practical. 

[Sestock]

Don't call it Limited Optics!

[OpenshooterMclass4lyfe]

Adding major/minor  to it defeats their whole reason for proposing the division.    People shooting their slide ride 2011s in 9mm (that are becoming more and more prevalent) weren’t competitive in open division and they didn’t fit into carry optics.      So now if they do major they still won’t be competitive in their division.       Major makes about as much sense for this proposed division as the division itself does.  

[YVK]

2 hours ago, RJH said:

 

There's a guy right here on these forums that made GM with a Glock 26. 

 

That argument is about as good as "minor is competitive in Lim" because of  Nils winning Limited with 9 mm Canik. One dude, who is about my son's age, making a GM with a G26 is a pretty week supporting evidence. 

That USPSA has no division in which guns that comprise the vast majority of daily carry options are competitive is a point that merits no further discussion, or wasting time on. The question whether people would want to shoot there or not will remain a purely theoretical blah-blah until such division is created. Which is going to happen never, unless something else happens.

 

 

2 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Imagine competing with a gun that's even a little practical. 

 

I don't need to imagine it. I started USPSA and IDPA with my actual carry gun which then was HK P30 with LEM trigger module, which as practical of a carry gun as it is unfit for competition. Even trained with Manny Bragg with it.

 

I actually think that 39 oz CCP is more of a joke that 59 oz CO. USPSA has shed all pretense of being anything practical or carry for a while. It is a race in every division. IDPA is still clinging to the carry image while continuing to set the divisions that fit Wilson Combat product lines.

Edited February 21, 2023 by YVK

[RJH]

2 hours ago, YVK said:

 

That argument is about as good as "minor is competitive in Lim" because of  Nils winning Limited with 9 mm Canik. One dude, who is about my son's age, making a GM with a G26 is a pretty week supporting evidence. 

That USPSA has no division in which guns that comprise the vast majority of daily carry options are competitive is a point that merits no further discussion, or wasting time on. The question whether people would want to shoot there or not will remain a purely theoretical blah-blah until such division is created. Which is going to happen never, unless something else happens.

 

 

 

I don't need to imagine it. I started USPSA and IDPA with my actual carry gun which then was HK P30 with LEM trigger module, which as practical of a carry gun as it is unfit for competition. Even trained with Manny Bragg with it.

 

I actually think that 39 oz CCP is more of a joke that 59 oz CO. USPSA has shed all pretense of being anything practical or carry for a while. It is a race in every division. IDPA is still clinging to the carry image while continuing to set the divisions that fit Wilson Combat product lines.

 

You should look in the IDPA, sounds like they're right up your alley

[Sestock]

Most of the tactical timmies wrists would break if they had to shoot major

[3gunDMD]

2 hours ago, Sestock said:

Most of the tactical timmies wrists would break if they had to shoot major

It seems like the average Timmy is in much better shape than the average uspsa shooter. 

[71Commander]

I don't think that there is a red dot that can withstand the punishment on a slide mount on a 40. My SRO had to be replaced mounted on a 9.  If they go 40, there will need to be a frame mount.

[Racinready300ex]

13 hours ago, YVK said:

I actually think that 39 oz CCP is more of a joke that 59 oz CO. USPSA has shed all pretense of being anything practical or carry for a while. It is a race in every division. IDPA is still clinging to the carry image while continuing to set the divisions that fit Wilson Combat product lines.

 

I kind of think IDPA has better rules on guns then we do. The box and weight limits seem to help, and CO just includes SAO and most of the sport is minor which is what people want. The new rule allowing ports is probably the wrong direction though.

 

I imagine the intent of the 38 oz limit in CCP was so small 1911's could make weight, it also allows for the compact cz75's that are steel framed. People do carry that kind of thing. Now the recent rule change bumping CCP to 10 rounds probably kills most of the 1911's in the division as a 10 round gun wont fit the ccp box. Most people I see aren't maxing out that weight limit, poly guns weight under 30 oz are pretty popular. 

[Boomstick303]

On 2/19/2023 at 5:09 PM, lroy said:

Setting up a division for a gun (40 optic) that doesn't exist and nobody wants (sanslimites shooters) to create artificial demand is silly.

 

We had this conversation just yesterday in trying to name the number of manufacturers that make 40 slide ride guns as a current product line.  There is only Atlas that we could come up with.  There might be more but we could not think of any.  Now name the plethera of manufacturers that have slide ride 9mm guns.  This includes 2011s, DA/SA guns, SA Guns, and Striker fired guns, etc.  The market has spoken.  People can keep crying about meh 40 but it is a dying caliber.   Like it or not, this is a FACT.

 

Making LO major you are creating a division where there is essentially zero guns being made for.  Does that make any sense what so ever?

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

We had this conversation just yesterday in trying to name the number of manufacturers that make 40 slide ride guns as a current product line.  There is only Atlas that we could come up with.  There might be more but we could not think of any.  Now name the plethera of manufacturers that have slide ride 9mm guns.  This includes 2011s, DA/SA guns, SA Guns, and Striker fired guns, etc.  The market has spoken.  People can keep crying about meh 40 but it is a dying caliber.   Like it or not, this is a FACT.

 

Making LO major you are creating a division where there is essentially zero guns being made for.  Does that make any sense what so ever?

 

 

You know one other thing that I was thinking about, is back when limited was the biggest division there was a very viable off the shelf 2011 that could be had for reasonable amounts of money in the STI edge. In my part of the world uin limited division you saw way more edges than any other gun. Now as far as I know nobody makes a really viable cost-effective 2011/Sao in 40, optics cut or not. But there are a lot of very viable, single action only, cost-effective guns in nine, and they are even optics ready

[Racinready300ex]

30 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

We had this conversation just yesterday in trying to name the number of manufacturers that make 40 slide ride guns as a current product line.  There is only Atlas that we could come up with.  There might be more but we could not think of any.  Now name the plethera of manufacturers that have slide ride 9mm guns.  This includes 2011s, DA/SA guns, SA Guns, and Striker fired guns, etc.  The market has spoken.  People can keep crying about meh 40 but it is a dying caliber.   Like it or not, this is a FACT.

 

Making LO major you are creating a division where there is essentially zero guns being made for.  Does that make any sense what so ever?

 

I was just listening to a pod cast with Yee-min, he mentioned talking to a manufacturer at shot and asked them what % of their sales was from 40 and they told him like 1-3%. Sounded like that's something he wants to dig into more before they decide what to do with the division. I think it probably doesn't make much sense to create a division based on guns that such a small number of people want in the first place. 

 

I don't think telling people to buy guns they don't want is a recipe for success long term. 

[Racinready300ex]

28 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

 

You know one other thing that I was thinking about, is back when limited was the biggest division there was a very viable off the shelf 2011 that could be had for reasonable amounts of money in the STI edge. In my part of the world uin limited division you saw way more edges than any other gun. Now as far as I know nobody makes a really viable cost-effective 2011/Sao in 40, optics cut or not. But there are a lot of very viable, single action only, cost-effective guns in nine, and they are even optics ready

 

That's likely some of it. My limited guns are essentially a edge and a eagle. They might look nicer but functionally and performance wise it's the same gun and it's all you really needed for limited. Now the only cost effective options are CZ and Tanfo, but doesn't seem like people want to chase 40 anymore. 

[Boomstick303]

11 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

I don't think telling people to buy guns they don't want is a recipe for success long term. 

 

Which probably means the board will make LO Minor/Major.  

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

@Boomstick303 honestly that was my first thought. Kinda like when no one was asking for CO to be 35 oz,

[YVK]

10 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Making LO major you are creating a division where there is essentially zero guns being made for.  Does that make any sense what so ever?

 

Makes sense or doesn't make sense depends on the initial intent or philosophy behind proposed changes. If the intent is/was to let what manufacturers are offering play because some people want that, then no, it makes no sense at all. If the intent is/was to incentivize members to shoot in divisions that require more skills than what's needed to shoot decent splits with 130 pf out of 40 - 50 oz guns, then it does make sense.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by YVK

[motosapiens]

10 hours ago, Boomstick303 said:

Making LO major you are creating a division where there is essentially zero guns being made for.  Does that make any sense what so ever?

There are zero motorcycles being made for moto GP. If not for USPSA there would be zero guns being made for open. It's not a bad thing to have race divisions alongside production-oriented divisions.

 

However, tho I obviously would prefer LO to be major/minor, I understand why that would be unpopular and also not solve the problem of tactards and a few gun mfrs crying for a place to shoot their single-action guns. But it doesn't really make sense to make LO and CO the same except for the SA triggers and production list requirement.

 

Perhaps it would make sense to make CO more production-oriented (15 rds, 40oz or less, no dorky thumbrests), and then it would make sense for a racier LO division to pit custom 2011's and shadow 2's against each other along with whatever plastic guns people want to customize and dress up a little more.

Edited February 22, 2023 by motosapiens

[Boomstick303]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

However, tho I obviously would prefer LO to be major/minor, I understand why that would be unpopular and also not solve the problem of tactards and a few gun mfrs crying for a place to shoot their single-action guns. But it doesn't really make sense to make LO and CO the same except for the SA triggers and production list requirement.

 

Perhaps it would make sense to make CO more production-oriented (15 rds, 40oz or less, no dorky thumbrests), and then it would make sense for a racier LO division to pit custom 2011's and shadow 2's against each other along with whatever plastic guns people want to customize and dress up a little more.

 

I can see your points and concede to some of them.  I am not a fan that CO and LO look so similar.  You have made suggestions here that make sense which means they most likely would not be implemented.  One issue with lowering round count to 15 in CO is that Genie has already been let out of the bottle.  I think you could definitely start with moving the minimum gun weight in CO down.  Not to something ridiculous like 35 oz.  It would be kind of cool if they did make CO based on more realistic Carry Guns.  

 

I do not completely agree with your assessment that the only reason LO is due to manufacturers and "tactards" making noise, and that it is more about what the market is doing.  

 

My only other qualm with LO having Major PF is really what are we doing?  Why are people not putting slide ride optics on Limited guns and not shooting open with them?  For every argument that SA guns have a place to play in open, that same arguement can be made for LO guns with slide ride optics.   To be honest I think if you did allow Major into LO it would lead to a much quicker demise of Limited in its current form.  

 

It seems that you see the writing on the wall as most of us on the forum do.  The market is indicating a push towards equipment and that needs to be addressed.  It may not placate everyone when LO is implemented (if it is), but I will say, it is nice the board is at least considering these changes in the market, and what people want to shoot.