Target focus then bring the dot to it or, dot focus then bring it to the target ?

[Boats]

Many years Rife competition mostly offhand silhouette , spent some time IDPA, shoot Sporting Clays for fun. All 3 my primary focus, eyes, position , mind, is spot I want to hit. Bring the guns sight to the spot.

 

New to Red Dots, shooting Rimfire club match, club rules. It’s like steel challenge, simpler, indoors at 15 yards. Gun held free style on a yellow cone to start . Stages targets vary, small to large. To date probably 1000 rounds practice with the dot on paper plates tapped to backer moving one to another., 5 club matches so far. Accurate not fast.
 

Like advice on how to acquire targets. Have been focusing on the dot resting top of  the start cone. Then bring it to the first target. Move to next targets same way watching the dot move it onto the desired spot. I know I would shoot much faster eyes on the spot I want to hit bring the sights to it almost sub conscious. Gun aligned it just goes off hardly think about it at all. It’s the way I shoot everything else.

 

Problem is can’t seem to make the red dot work that way. Any and all comments appreciated 

 

Boats.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by Boats

[Sarge]

With a dot you focus on the target. Just let the dot get in the way

[Johnny_Chimpo]

1 hour ago, Boats said:

Like advice on how to acquire targets. Have been focusing on the dot resting top of  the start cone. Then bring it to the first target. Move to next targets same way watching the dot move it onto the desired spot. I know I would shoot much faster eyes on the spot I want to hit bring the sights to it almost sub conscious. Gun aligned it just goes off hardly think about it at all. It’s the way I shoot everything else.

 

Problem is can’t seem to make the red dot work that way. Any and all comments appreciated 

 

Boats.

 

 

 

Tape over the front of the dot and focus on the target with both eyes while keeping the optic in front of your face.

 

You're just gonna have to trust on this one.

[CHA-LEE]

If you have the dot brightness up too high its almost impossible to NOT have a dot focus. Turn the dot brightness down so that its not such a distraction within the glass. This will help you maintain a hard target focus.

 

If you are seeing the dot within the glass DURING the transition then you are not moving your eyes to the next target. Think of it like this. As soon as the shot breaks on the current target your eyes should flick OUTSIDE of the glass to the next target aiming spot. Then your focus maintains on the next target as your gun physically moves towards the target. Eventually the glass will cover the focal spot on the target and as soon as the red dot lands on the focal point you break the shot.

 

Another key point I want to make about the above statement. Notice that I am talking about only moving your EYES to the next target. Not your whole head. You need to be comfortable with keeping your head pointed in the same direction of the gun while only moving your EYES to the next target. Basically, everything from the waist up should be "Locked Up" and moving as one unit like a tank turret during a transition.

[Blackstone45]

I think you just need to dry fire more with emphasis on developing your index with the red dot. You should be able to point your gun at the target and have the dot appear without you needing to search for it. If you can't do that, then it's too early to work on transitions.

[Boats]

Good advice here. I have Brian’s book (which is very relevant to all shooting) section 3 is detailed on target, not sight focus. My issue is learning the red dot. It’s easy to loose it moving.  I think drilling the move dry will help. Waive the gun around with wrist it’s  hard to acquire sights . Body drives the move much smoother . This no different Rifle or Shotgun, just have to do it dot.

 

 

[VeilAndrew]

There is definitely a lot of good advice here. I want to touch on something pretty specific to the cone starts for steel challenge. You can aim the gun generally at the cone and just keep your eyes focused on a small part of your first steel target. Bring the dot to the target and break the shot. You don't need to be looking at the dot aiming at the cone!

[Boats]

Probably nothing a whole lot of drilling  won’t fix. 1000 odd shots practice plus half a dozen matches actually not much effort learning new sighting system . Needs more, dry at home could increase 10x no cost.

 

Johnny  Chimpos advice brief but very relevant.  Shooting my factory stock 1911 Commander sight so small don’t see much of it Position, grip & target focus makes it very shootable. Fellow near me DR Middlebrooks was a early successful speed shooter. Did a video of his wife running a plate rack with pistols sights removed. Distance too she never missed. Red Dot remarkable precision & advantage to old eyes. Easy to get caught up in the precise part and forget the rest.

 

Thanks 

[Flea]

12 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Tape over the front of the dot and focus on the target with both eyes while keeping the optic in front of your face.

 

You're just gonna have to trust on this one.

This ^^^

Black tape or blue painters tape. As said above, you should be focusing on a specific small spot on the target where you want the bullet to hit. If you are focused on a small spot while your red dot has tape on it, you will be able to see the dot and the spot you are looking at. If you can't see the small spot, then you most likely are staring at the dot. When shooting, eyes move to spot then bring gun to that spot. Join the PSTG group for tons of good info.

[GOF]

On 12/15/2022 at 9:41 AM, VeilAndrew said:

There is definitely a lot of good advice here. I want to touch on something pretty specific to the cone starts for steel challenge. You can aim the gun generally at the cone and just keep your eyes focused on a small part of your first steel target. Bring the dot to the target and break the shot. You don't need to be looking at the dot aiming at the cone!

+1! Excellent advice.  I would add Look - Lock - Look. Aim the gun at the cone. Look to see the dot centered. Lock the wrists to hold that. Look at the target. BEEP... bring the gun straight to the target you are Looking at and the dot will appear on it if you haven't broken your wrist lock. If the dot is centered and the wrists locked to hold it there the dot will be on the target that you are looking at. You can practice this in your living room.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

8 hours ago, GOF said:

Look to see the dot centered

 

Not necessary.  I see people new to dots wasting time trying to get it centered in the optic.

[GOF]

On 12/17/2022 at 11:45 PM, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Not necessary.  I see people new to dots wasting time trying to get it centered in the optic.

If that dot is centered and you lock your wrists to that position that dot will hit the target quickly. If you break that wrist lock, and lose that centered dot, you'll be playing a spirited game of Where's Waldo. A centered dot and locked wrists are important.  0.01 seconds count in Steel Challenge. Don't waste then looking for a dot that should already have been there.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 hours ago, GOF said:

If that dot is centered and you lock your wrists to that position that dot will hit the target quickly.

 

Are you saying there's no other way to snap the rifle to your shoulder and have the dot be where you look?

[Twilk73]

You never need to think about where you’re pointing when you point your finger. You just look and your finger follows. Your gun is an extension of your hand and you just need to practice pointing it while looking ahead. Practice drawing the pistol and acquiring the dot. But when you draw your pistol point use your trigger finger to point at your target instead of loading the trigger like you might normally do in practice. Also bigger sight windows makes loosing the dot harder. I actually learned using an rmr. After my first ever idpa match I switched to the sro because everyone was using that or a delta point. What a difference it made for transitions. 

[GOF]

19 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

Are you saying there's no other way to snap the rifle to your shoulder and have the dot be where you look?

If the rifle is a perfect fit to the shooter... like a Sporting Clays champion fits their stock to them... then the dot will be there. With a pistol the Look Lock Look is important because if the wrist lock is broken on the presentation the dot can become somewhat hard to find.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

2 hours ago, GOF said:

If the rifle is a perfect fit to the shooter... like a Sporting Clays champion fits their stock to them... then the dot will be there. With a pistol the Look Lock Look is important because if the wrist lock is broken on the presentation the dot can become somewhat hard to find.

 

These are crutches for someone who doesn't put in the time to develop a solid index with a rifle from any carry position and with a pistol from the holster.

 

 

[GOF]

I one is having trouble walking a crutch is quite useful.

[pjb45]

On 12/14/2022 at 9:17 PM, CHA-LEE said:

If you have the dot brightness up too high its almost impossible to NOT have a dot focus. Turn the dot brightness down so that its not such a distraction within the glass. This will help you maintain a hard target focus.

 

If you are seeing the dot within the glass DURING the transition then you are not moving your eyes to the next target. Think of it like this. As soon as the shot breaks on the current target your eyes should flick OUTSIDE of the glass to the next target aiming spot. Then your focus maintains on the next target as your gun physically moves towards the target. Eventually the glass will cover the focal spot on the target and as soon as the red dot lands on the focal point you break the shot.

 

Another key point I want to make about the above statement. Notice that I am talking about only moving your EYES to the next target. Not your whole head. You need to be comfortable with keeping your head pointed in the same direction of the gun while only moving your EYES to the next target. Basically, everything from the waist up should be "Locked Up" and moving as one unit like a tank turret during a transition.

Spot On.

Eyes then gun.  Drive the gun to the target.

If your eyes are moving with the gun then you are moving too slow.

Mike Seeklander said, " red on brown, pull the trigger" of course his is a champion GM etc.  

[Boats]

Been off the forum for few days making dry movement at home a lot. What is working well locking my wrist elbows and arms, then making movements target to target from the body. Eyes to the target, swinging full body into it break the shot as the dot arrives. Bad weather not  much chance outside, indoor club range stapled paper plates to three target backers 3 lanes side by side. 15 yards distance 
 

Moving plate to plate not real fast it’s easy to hit all center Speed up opens groups on the plates. Real fast I start to get misses. Probably  only way to learn speed is go fast accept then try to minimize misses. Paper backer much larger than the plate giving me feedback on misses. That’s were I am with it.

 

On index. If you don’t have a consistent gun mount and index shotgun on clays,  particularly sporting with widely varied targets you will get  inconsistent breaks & high miss rate.

 

Again thanks  all 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Boats

[rpm8300]

Lots of great info has been posted - for dot brightness, if you're shooting a USPSA or other related action type course, try to index off the brightest target and set the dot brightness as low as possible to effectively engage that target.  In some courses, there are different sun exposures and a dot set for part of the course can get lost in a bright target.

 

For target focus, put some dry fire targets at 10, 12, and 2 o'clock and run one drill at 50% speed where you move your eyes deliberately to the next target, and then the gun and dot.  Speed it up until you get a good rhythm of the eyes finding the target and the dot right behind.  THEN put the gun down, and simulate a grip with both hands, with your right index finger extended.  Do the same drill but move your right index finger with your simulated grip to the next target.  You'll see how naturally and quickly you can move the right index finger to the target - the delta between this and the dot is where you can focus.

[flyinverted]

All good info here. I was surprised on my weakness in a recent contest. That was finding the dot when running between targets. I can naturally stand still, draw and point to the A zone 95% of the time. Doing that while running and bringing the gun up from a semi-low ready or low enough to clear a barrier  is a different index I need to get the brain to work on. 

[maur]

You focus/look at the target, and then your dot slides into the picture