Boomstick303 Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) My point is your comment that current CO guns become obsolete overnight if SA is were allowed is not really valid. Allowing people to shoot SA in CO would not change much in regards to CO. It would possibly move some shooters out of Limited and/or Open. Most likely affecting open more so than Limited. The top CO shooter shooting their current guns would hang just fine with anyone running SA guns. Would some of them switch to a SA gun? Probably but they would not be required to, to be competitive. If someone thinks they need to spend Thousands to be competitive in any division other than maybe open deserves to think they can "but points". Its not going to make them a better shooter or more competitive. Only putting in the work will do that. Still waiting on an answer on what division is at the mercy of a "Gear Race". With the exception of Open there is not one. The only reason Open is there is because the fact of shooting major and what is required to keep the gun flat is the realistic way to be competitive. Edited October 17, 2022 by Boomstick303 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 15 minutes ago, deerslayer said: I think I would rather go shoot my 6.5. What time does shooting start? Is it already set up and ready to go (minus stapling targets) that morning? yeh no kidding,, 20 man squads you are looking at what 1.5 hours a stage,,, So 6 hours, for maybe 80 seconds of shooting...? Which is the biggest reason I quit shooting USPSA. I was shooting Fredericksburg and the club matches were worse than that.. PLUS iRRC had to sign up a week or so in advance. I have not looked into the USPSA matches in my area of Kansas, so no idea what the shoot to stand around ratio is.. IMO new divisions will just cannibalize the old.. Can be no growth without more matches. I mean look at the production numbers lately,, then the CO numbers.. FOlks just transferred. Not saying new division is bad,,, or the membership wont enjoy one, but Growth is a dumb justification for it, because you wont get any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: My point is your comment that current CO guns become obsolete overnight if SA is were allowed is not really valid. Allowing people to shoot SA in CO would not change much in regards to CO. It would possibly move some shooters out of Limited and/or Open. Most likely affecting open more so than Limited. I don't know if 'obsolete' is the right word. it's been obvious for a few years (since plastic guns went 1-2-3 at lim nats) that a duty/carry based non-2011 can be competitive, but the overwhelming majority of serious competitors choose a 2011 for limited because they're fun to shoot and cost lots of money. I personally think we have enough divisions where everyone shoots a custom 2011, and I'd like to see CO keep its identity as being based on mass-produced actual duty/carry guns you can just buy at cabela's or the local hardware store (my local hardware store has canik rivals and cz shadow 2). btw, unlike some in this thread, I actually shoot USPSA, work big matches, help put on local matches, etc.... Edited October 17, 2022 by motosapiens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 I think the snag here is we'll say Nils is so good he made up for shooting minor but at the same time it's not possible that him and Mason could also be overcoming a equipment disadvantage at the same time. The entire case for SAO-CO is built on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 1 minute ago, motosapiens said: overwhelming majority of serious competitors choose a 2011 for limited because they're fun to shoot and cost lots of money The KEY word here is CHOOSE a 2011 because they are fun to shoot. Nothing in the rules is forcing them to. That has been my point the entire time. Thank you for agreeing with me. 3 minutes ago, motosapiens said: I'd like to see CO keep its identity as being based on mass-produced actual duty/carry guns you can just buy at cabela's or the local hardware store (my local hardware store has canik rivals and cz shadow 2). You have a rare hardware store that carry's CZs and that's cool. I have yet to see a CZ in any hardware store. Its cool you would like to see CO in its current form. Many of would like to shoot our 2011s because they are fun to shoot. Allowing SA guns to compete in CO would not stop you from using any current gun that is allowed in CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motosapiens Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Just now, Boomstick303 said: Many of would like to shoot our 2011s because they are fun to shoot. Allowing SA guns to compete in CO would not stop you from using any current gun that is allowed in CO. you can already shoot your 2011's. USPSA has 3 divisions where custom 2011's are allowed, and the overwhelming majority of competitors in those divisions shoot custom 2011's. They don't need to be allowed in *every* division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zachjet Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Just now, motosapiens said: you can already shoot your 2011's. USPSA has 3 divisions where custom 2011's are allowed, and the overwhelming majority of competitors in those divisions shoot custom 2011's. They don't need to be allowed in *every* division. But how will they sell more guns? Springfield has one now, how long before other big manf. Start selling 2011’s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 24 minutes ago, deerslayer said: I think I would rather go shoot my 6.5. What time does shooting start? Is it already set up and ready to go (minus stapling targets) that morning? Yes they setup the day before and tear down can happen after the time limit just no more shooting. Hammer down is 10, so your walk through is before and first shooter is up the second they can shoot. It's tight, sometimes down to the wire. But, this is why when I hear about needing new divisions to "grow the sport" I can't help but laugh. Around here the sport really can't grow. For new people to come in, others need to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 Maintaining and growing membership numbers is always going to be the main goal of just about any organization. Just because certain areas struggle in regards to number of ranges hinders ones participation due to squad size and/or registration maximums. That is hardly the fault of the organization. We are lucky. On the Front Range (just east of the Rockies in the Denver Metro area) we can shoot a match every weekend day every month weather permitting (it slows bit in winter but only for about 3-4 months). The matches for the most part have at least 40-60 people and typically are not maxed out. This means there is room to grow membership in this area. So yes, the organization should continue to grow. If people wish to overcome these issues in their particular area maybe they should reach out to the organization to possibly work with local ranges to organize a USPSA organization at ranges that currently do not hold USPSA matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
euxx Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said: For the short time I have been in the sport, the most mind blowing thing I have ever seen is Nils winning Limited Nationals shooting minor. The most blowing thing was him winning after throwing away 40+ points on one of the stages (that is about 2.5% of the match points). PS: and his win margin was less than 0.5 of a match point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 6 minutes ago, motosapiens said: They don't need to be allowed in *every* division. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else. One of those divisions does not really exist. Limited does not allow optics, and open is open. Not really the same gun I am advocating for. SA optic gun manufacturing and buyer market is expanding. Most 2011 builders are back logged so the demand is there. I'm fine with leaving CO as is and adding something like Limited Optics. But I do think there is a need for a division for slide ride optic SA guns to participate in with high capacity mags other than open for the reasons stated above. I would also find it interesting to have Major and Minor in something like Limited Optics. To create some sort of competitive balance allow minor to have 170mm mags and Major to be limited to 140mm mags. This would give a huge number of Limited shooters with aging eyesight a place to shoot their Iron sighted 2011 guns once their vision gets progressively worse. Not sure how the sudden push to lower Major PF or doing away with it all together plays into this. I understand this is my opinion. Interesting conversations for certain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick303 Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 21 minutes ago, Zachjet said: how long before other big manf. Start selling 2011’s? Not Long...... I give you the Sig P226 X5. Curious on how Max is pimping that gun in Sig videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racinready300ex Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said: You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else. One of those divisions does not really exist. Limited does not allow optics, and open is open. Not really the same gun I am advocating for. SA optic gun manufacturing and buyer market is expanding. Most 2011 builders are back logged so the demand is there. I love this, open is open. Your gun is fine in open but you want to shoot it there against those guns. But you're also going to make the case that my gun will still allowed be in CO whether I want to shoot against 2011's or not. It's exactly the same, you just want your thing to be allowed where you want it and screw what anyone else thinks. Edit, and don't say major scoring. If Nils shooting a striker gun is proof 2011's should be in CO then it's also proof you can shoot your minor 2011 in open if you want to. Edited October 17, 2022 by Racinready300ex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted October 17, 2022 Share Posted October 17, 2022 On 10/13/2022 at 7:47 PM, pcs352 said: Inquiring if there is a general timeline for annual rule change announcements? Last year it appeared to be early Spring... predictions??? This was the OP. We have gone lightyears beyond this. Please take your off-topic conversations to the appropriate threads... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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