USPSA Rule Change Announcement... When?

[llamasabound]

4 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

Sure. But you’d expect the actual GM’s to be within 15% of the winner. 
 

Either GM’s below 80% need to be relegated or the elite need to be elevated. It’s embarrassing for one to even be compared to the other. 

Why would you expect that? The classification system is the source of most people’s classification and it tops out at 100. Match performance, at any given match, has no such arbitrary limit. The relationship between best 6 of 8 *qualifying* classifier runs to match % is tenuous at best. However baseline shooting skills, which the classifier system does a great job of indexing, is very predictive of match placement. As someone has to point out every time this line of argument is raised (today is my turn), the Gs mostly beat the Ms who mostly beat the As and so on down the line. Appears to be working as advertised. In the open match that just concluded, don’t just pick on GMs  only 11/62 A were above 75%. In fact, the strongest connection between classification and match %, unsurprisingly, is C class.

 

To the point of the thread, I can’t imagine a USPSA division will successfully prop up a caliber or a pistol: people who want to compete will shoot what they can, or want to, shoot. A new division will reslice the same pie.

[Dirty_J]

33 minutes ago, llamasabound said:

Why would you expect that? The classification system is the source of most people’s classification and it tops out at 100. Match performance, at any given match, has no such arbitrary limit. The relationship between best 6 of 8 *qualifying* classifier runs to match % is tenuous at best. However baseline shooting skills, which the classifier system does a great job of indexing, is very predictive of match placement. As someone has to point out every time this line of argument is raised (today is my turn), the Gs mostly beat the Ms who mostly beat the As and so on down the line. Appears to be working as advertised. In the open match that just concluded, don’t just pick on GMs  only 11/62 A were above 75%. In fact, the strongest connection between classification and match %, unsurprisingly, is C class.

 

To the point of the thread, I can’t imagine a USPSA division will successfully prop up a caliber or a pistol: people who want to compete will shoot what they can, or want to, shoot. A new division will reslice the same pie.

I’m not saying the classification system doesn’t mostly work. It does. 
 

I’m saying when you have a handfull of people that are consistently above everyone else in their class… it should be recognized. All other classes you get promoted up… in this case the top needs another layer. 
 

I do agree with you on SAO optics (added to CO or as a stand alone) divisions tho… it won’t change much.
 

The same folks are going to win… Nils just beat $5000 SAO guns… with a $500 striker-fired Canik. And he’d do the exact same thing in a CO division that included SAO optics guns. Kinda reinforces my point that he (and a select few others) are in a class all their own… regardless of the letter designation next to the name. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by Dirty_J

[llamasabound]

19 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

I’m not saying the classification system doesn’t mostly work. It does. 
 

I’m saying when you have a handfull of people that are consistently above everyone else in their class… it should be recognized. All other classes you get promoted up… in this case the top needs another layer. 
 

I do agree with you on SAO optics (added to CO or as a stand alone) divisions tho… it won’t change much.
 

The same folks are going to win… Nils just beat $5000 SAO guns… with a $500 striker-fired Canik. And he’d do the exact same thing in a CO division that included SAO optics guns. Kinda reinforces my point that he (and a select few others) are in a class all their own… regardless of the letter designation next to the name. 

no disagreement there!

 

there’s GM, regional heat, and the very short list of national contenders in any match or division who are a full tier above, with added daylight  

[Barcode1337]

19 minutes ago, Dirty_J said:

I’m saying when you have a handfull of people that are consistently above everyone else in their class… it should be recognized.

 

It is recognized. It's called winning.

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, Dirty_J said:

Sure. But you’d expect the actual GM’s to be within 15% of the winner. 
 

Either GM’s below 80% need to be relegated or the elite need to be elevated. It’s embarrassing for one to even be compared to the other. 

i completely disagree. anyway, the whole classification thing is just a sideshow. the only thing that matters is your percentage of the overall winner. everyone is compared to everyone, regardless of the dumb letter.

Edited October 17, 2022 by motosapiens

[Joe4d]

2 hours ago, llamasabound said:

. A new division will reslice the same pie.

winner winner, chicken dinner..  As mentioned. Matches fill in no time,

[ddc]

On 10/14/2022 at 2:02 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

I am also against it, but I think because I'm against it. It's more likely to happen

 

I think that's the way it usually works for me too. 

[Johnny_Chimpo]

7 hours ago, Joe4d said:

winner winner, chicken dinner..  As mentioned. Matches fill in no time,

 

I keep hearing this and not seeing it.  Where you live is not representative of the rest of the country.  IIRC you stopped competing a while a go.  Have you re-started and is it still the same?

[Racinready300ex]

2 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I keep hearing this and not seeing it.  Where you live is not representative of the rest of the country.  IIRC you stopped competing a while a go.  Have you re-started and is it still the same?

 

There are club matches here that have waiting lists to get into. Things have seemed to slow now that everything is so much more expensive. But there have been matches this year I couldn't get into because I didn't register fast enough. 

[Nathanb]

I was an MD up until this year.  I could hold 84 shooters with the staff I had. I would fill matches in under ten minutes.  Typically it would be 3-5.  My phone would be unusable during the registration window opening from all the emails coming in. 
 

id typically see 115-130 shooters registered and 30-40 waitlisted. 
 

id have people beg to be able to shoot. Very telling stat. I had a policy that if you showed up at 7 am to help me finish setup I’d let you shoot.  One person took me up on that in five years. 

[Zachjet]

The 3 local matches I shoot, plus two more local that I don’t, all fill up fast and have waitlists. Granted I’m in a more dense area(NYC) then most 

[Racinready300ex]

@Nathanb   @Zachjet I'm a little south of you guys, but for sure this is a issue in the North East. The sport here can not grow because we don't have the capacity for growth. Add all the divisions we want, in the name of growing the sport. But that's not the effect it will have. 

[Zachjet]

And I don’t know anyone who read the rules before there first match as far as class. I just showed up and shot. I could care less if I was in open because of a magwell or a dot. I just didn’t wanna dq lmao. Our local matches we have a few new guys with SAO guns shooting carry ops it’s not like they’re going to unfairly have the advantage that’s going to make them win.. we just try and let people get their feetwet and then grow into the sport. That’s what I did.  I’ve only been shooting since April 

[Nathanb]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

@Nathanb   @Zachjet I'm a little south of you guys, but for sure this is an issue in the North East. The sport here can not grow because we don't have the capacity for growth. Add all the divisions we want, in the name of growing the sport. But that's not the effect it will have. 

Absolutely. The only way it grows is more clubs and more matches which means more volunteer time. That doesn’t necessarily lead to growth either. 

[deerslayer]

4 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

I keep hearing this and not seeing it.  Where you live is not representative of the rest of the country. 

Same here.  We had 36 shooters last weekend and that was the most in a while.  We have practiscore set up for six squads.  I don’t think we’ve ever been full.  We do shoot twice a month though and have a third match available an hour or so down the road once a month.  So that may water down participation a bit. 

Edited October 17, 2022 by deerslayer

[Racinready300ex]

23 minutes ago, deerslayer said:

Same here.  We had 36 shooters last weekend and that was the most in a while.  We have practiscore set up for six squads.  I don’t think we’ve ever been full.  We do shoot twice a month though and have a third match available an hour or so down the road once a month.  So that may water down participation a bit. 

 

Imagine this match, tell me if you'd shoot it. 

 

3 Bays, probably 4 stages. Likely no classifier. So only 3 squads. 18-20 shooters per squad. Must be done by 1:00 it's a hard stop curfew. So far while I've been there they've never  stopped with out finishing. Not sure how that's handled. I'd guess toss a stage of DNF some shooters. 

 

I think a lot of guys here would think that sounds crazy, but that match will be full with a waiting list to get in.

[MHicks]

In my local more rural area our smaller matches don't fill up. But the larger matches a couple hours away in population centers do fill up quickly.

[Boomstick303]

20 hours ago, Sarge said:

One things for sure. IF they make the CO change a bunch of guns will become old news overnight just like SS and REVO.

 

Glad someone didn't tell Nils and Mason they would not be competitive not using SA guns where they finished first and third respectively at Limited Nationals.  

 

 

[Racinready300ex]

4 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Glad someone didn't tell Nils and Mason they would not be competitive not using SA guns where they finished first and third respectively at Limited Nationals.  

 

 

 

Same goes for you must shoot major in Limited. Clearly that's debunked now too. 

[Boomstick303]

Just now, Racinready300ex said:

Same goes for you must shoot major in Limited. Clearly that's debunked now too. 

 

For the short time I have been in the sport, the most mind blowing thing I have ever seen is Nils winning Limited Nationals shooting minor.  

[motosapiens]

44 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

For the short time I have been in the sport, the most mind blowing thing I have ever seen is Nils winning Limited Nationals shooting minor.  

at classic nats nils was 7% of 2nd place, and 10% ahead of everyone else. With equal equipment, he is sufficiently better than everyone else that It makes sense to me that he could take the 3-5% disadvantage of minor and still hang on for the win. It certainly shouldn't encourage anyone else to shoot minor, because it's an obvious disadvantage.

[Boomstick303]

Just now, motosapiens said:

It certainly shouldn't encourage anyone else to shoot minor, because it's an obvious disadvantage.

 

NEVER said it did.  Just expressing that it is an amazing feat for the vary reasons you brought up.

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Imagine this match, tell me if you'd shoot it. 

 

3 Bays, probably 4 stages. Likely no classifier. So only 3 squads. 18-20 shooters per squad. Must be done by 1:00 it's a hard stop curfew. So far while I've been there they've never  stopped with out finishing. Not sure how that's handled. I'd guess toss a stage of DNF some shooters. 

 

I think a lot of guys here would think that sounds crazy, but that match will be full with a waiting list to get in.

I think I would rather go shoot my 6.5.  
 

What time does shooting start?  Is it already set up and ready to go (minus stapling targets) that morning?  

Edited October 17, 2022 by deerslayer

[Sarge]

1 hour ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Glad someone didn't tell Nils and Mason they would not be competitive not using SA guns where they finished first and third respectively at Limited Nationals.  

 

 

Ok. So there’s 2 people out of how many thousands? Nils could beat many open shooters with a production gun.

[deerslayer]

5 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Ok. So there’s 2 people out of how many thousands? Nils could beat many open shooters with a production gun.

Exactly.  Average shooters and most better-than-average shooters are a lot better off shooting major in Limited.  But I hope more of my fellow Limited competitors take note and start shooting minor

Edited October 17, 2022 by deerslayer