Upcoming Proposals for Member Comment

[skip62]

4 hours ago, ZackJones said:

The 4 proposals are online for review and comment. 

 

https://scsa.org/proposals

 

 

Hey Zack, why did I have to come here to find the link?  Why isn't under resources or something on the SCSA site?  I do go to the website, I hardly ever come here, but a friend referred me to this thread.  It should actually have it's own heading on the SCSA site, so people would see.  

 

[nso123]

20 minutes ago, skip62 said:

Hey Zack, why did I have to come here to find the link?  Why isn't under resources or something on the SCSA site?  I do go to the website, I hardly ever come here, but a friend referred me to this thread.  It should actually have it's own heading on the SCSA site, so people would see.  

 

It’s under the announcements at the bottom of the website. 

[skip62]

14 minutes ago, nso123 said:

It’s under the announcements at the bottom of the website. 

 

Ahh, my bad, sorry Zack.  Thank you nso123, much appreciated.

[Darqusoull13]

1 hour ago, ZackJones said:

 

And here I thought you were a friend :). 

 

It's okay that you're against them. I fully understand that no matter what we do not everyone will be happy; however, these are things that were proposed back in January at the in person BoD meeting and I have a duty to follow through on that which is what I've done. 

 

I would disagree that they don't add any real value to current members. I think each one does for a variety of reasons and not all of which were included in the proposals posted. I personally know of some USPSA members that have let their membership expire due to being over classified. I see it as an opportunity to win some of those people back. 

 

I have heard, on more than one occasion, that SCSA competitors want their own RO path independent of USPSA handgun certification. I'm one of those. I can't tell you the last time I've called 2 alpha or pasted a target and I don't ever plan to do that in the future. Splitting the RO certification paths falls under DNROI and his team. I will bring it up to them as I'm hearing this more and more often. 

 

Now that the presidential election is finalized give us some time to work with Yee-Min and see what his take is on things.

 

BTW PM or email (zack@uspsa.org) me your address. I need to send you your club 13 coin. 

Well, I submitted feedback on the SCSA site but I was probably not PC enough for that to go anywhere. 

 

We are friends Zach. I just think the organization is listening to too much whining about nothing and not taking an objective look at what could jump membership by 10% annually. 

 

Solutions:

 

1) Retention - Offer FREE clinics at EVERY Area, National and World match for juniors taught by the best shooters. 

 

2) Recruitment - Offer 1st year FREE to anyone who shoots their first SANCTIONED SCSA match. Put a min of 4 stages so they get classified and FFS send them a physical classification card. 

 

3) ROs - Making people pay to take a class to go volunteer is a trash deal. 3 GN and Rob actually had a fantastic RO program. You shot the RO match by day while learning from current ROs. At night you took the RO class. After those 2 days you assisted for the main match. The important part was everything was covered, travel, hotel, match, food, the whole weekend. 

Add on you start paying ROs better for the weekend and maybe the same ROs we see beat down at every match will get a break. 

 

Slots for WSSC gets fixed by running 16 stages, 2 matches. You get enough ROs by 1) training them for free and 2) paying them better to work the match. 

 

I know I'm being blunt, but the current proposals do not address the issues I'm hearing for the organization, mostly USPSA but SCSA too and it's all the same pot, hemorrhaging memberships. 

[RaylanGivens]

I think things are fine the way they are...  Options 3 and 4 are ok as long as you make them optional.

 

I've talked to Troy about a separate Steel Challenge RO program...  He is dead set against it...  He even wrote an article in the USPSA newsletter saying why he is against it.

[ZackJones]

18 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Slots for WSSC gets fixed by running 16 stages, 2 matches. You get enough ROs by 1) training them for free and 2) paying them better to work the match.  

Not gonna happen. We looked at it and from a financial standpoint it's not viable. 

 

I'll eventually see your non-PC comments and we (USPSA) will take them under advisement. 

 

[ZackJones]

12 hours ago, RaylanGivens said:

I think things are fine the way they are...  Options 3 and 4 are ok as long as you make them optional.

 

I've talked to Troy about a separate Steel Challenge RO program...  He is dead set against it...  He even wrote an article in the USPSA newsletter saying why he is against it.

 

3 won't be optional. We will restore times for everyone. 4 is purely elective and the member must take action within the timeframe allotted. 

 

Regarding separate RO path I understand Troy's stance but like me we do what at the BoD directs. 

 

[ZackJones]

19 hours ago, skip62 said:

Hey Zack, why did I have to come here to find the link?  Why isn't under resources or something on the SCSA site?  I do go to the website, I hardly ever come here, but a friend referred me to this thread.  It should actually have it's own heading on the SCSA site, so people would see.  

 

It's actually listed on both web sites and has been plastered over FB. It'll be in the Down Range email blast as well. 

 

[Darqusoull13]

41 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

Not gonna happen. We looked at it and from a financial standpoint it's not viable. 

 

I'll eventually see your non-PC comments and we (USPSA) will take them under advisement. 

 

How much are they wanting to make? 

 

The only thing that doubles is ROs and steel. Reg staff, stats etc are all the same. Water is negligible. WSSC doesn't include shirts or lunch. Range is already rented up top. Heck the steel is already there. 

 

So what am I missing?

[shred]

Well, if we're piling-on about all the other things we'd like in SCSA, how about reduced-target stages for the 25 yard ranges?  With a 25-for-35 scaled plate, Speed Option can be made identical in "moa" to full-size, and outer limits is only a few inches off, which is probably as good as a half-ass club match setup anyway.

 

Keeping a record of the highest classification earned is important to many geezers that got to M once and now are older and slower, and if matches around here are any indication, are a huge part of the sport like it or not.  Let them compete where they land now, but keep a notations somewhere-- Current classification : B (highest achieved: A) or some such. 

 

 

[ZackJones]

On 9/4/2022 at 4:44 PM, Darqusoull13 said:

How much are they wanting to make? 

 

The only thing that doubles is ROs and steel. Reg staff, stats etc are all the same. Water is negligible. WSSC doesn't include shirts or lunch. Range is already rented up top. Heck the steel is already there. 

 

So what am I missing?

The organization does not make money on any Nationals / WSSC match. This was announced at the membership meeting at WSSC. 

[ZackJones]

8 hours ago, shred said:

Well, if we're piling-on about all the other things we'd like in SCSA, how about reduced-target stages for the 25 yard ranges?  With a 25-for-35 scaled plate, Speed Option can be made identical in "moa" to full-size, and outer limits is only a few inches off, which is probably as good as a half-ass club match setup anyway.

 

Keeping a record of the highest classification earned is important to many geezers that got to M once and now are older and slower, and if matches around here are any indication, are a huge part of the sport like it or not.  Let them compete where they land now, but keep a notations somewhere-- Current classification : B (highest achieved: A) or some such. 

 

I've had some informal discussions regarding 8 additional stages that would be based on the current 8. For example SC-111 would be a new version of 5 To Go that clubs with limited width and depth could setup. I've been asked specifically about stages for indoor ranges as well. For the other 7 stages we would design stages using the same plates that we use now on that stage. This would permit clubs to run new stages without having to acquire additional steel. 

 

Retaining your current (highest) classification will always be an option. Selective reclassification is something that each member must opt-in for. 

 

[shred]

Eh, reduced-size plates are a whole lot easier to move around and store, plus give the same visual target.  Doesn't seem like a big barrier to clubs as they cost about what a 12" round does and they only need two or 3.   Opens up opportunities for shooters that only have 25 yard ranges to practice all the WSSC stages.

 

[jrdoran]

Reposted from USPSA website to continue the discussion. 

 

Steel Challenge Proposal 2022-01
2023 Peak Stage Time (PST) Adjustments

Background: The Steel Challenge rules (Appendix A4 – Classification) requires PSTs to be reviewed and, if appropriate, adjusted. Upon completion of the 2022 World Speed Shooting Championship (WSSC) match the required review was completed.

Methodology:
1 – 2022 WSSC Match results were used for analysis
2 – ISR was not considered for any reduction in time due to less than 10 competitors competing in that division.
3 – All scores between 95% (GM) and 110% of PST were included for analysis. Any score > 110% was excluded. All times used were averaged to come up with a single time.
4 – If five or more competitors shoot a qualifying time then consider adjustment. If less than five shot a qualifying time add 0.10 to the current PST. Any decrease or increase had to be greater or equal to 0.10. Any change less than that value was ignored.

NOTE: Diff is change from current PST

Stage Key
101 – 5 To Go
102 – Showdown

103 – Smoke & Hope

104 – Outer Limits

105 – Accelerator

106 – The Pendulum

107 – Speed Option

108 – Roundabout

 

Change summary by stage

 

 

If approved as recommended these PSTs will be used beginning with the first classification cycle in January 2023.

Edited September 6, 2022 by jrdoran
format

[Joe4d]

Question for folks been around Pre USPSA buying the name. 
Did steel challenge even have a class system ? Did anyone care ? How many shooters did , say a national level match get compared to today ?
Has a class system added  to the sport ? Or was it just done because USPSA had one ?

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Joe4d

[shred]

Back in the Piru WSSC days there were no classifications, and two divisions for the main match-- Open and Iron, you could enter both if you wanted shooting Iron one day and Open the next.  There were sub-categories of Revo (iron and optic) and IDPA and Jr & Lady & Senior & so on that were eligible for special prizes and cash.   Rimfire pistol was a separate match held the day before the main match.  There were optic and iron divisions there.  There were various shotgun and rifle and SASS and vendor demos and side matches too.

 

In 2004 there were 205 separate competitors in the main match and around 100 in Rimfire.

In 2005, 214 in the main match.

(the 2004 & 2005 numbers are from the prize table list so double-entries are only counted as one person)

 

2006 - 253 main match entries (includes double entries this time, so not apples-apples, but except for the pros, not a ton of people shot both).

 

TBH, Rimfire made SC grow again at the local level.  It was slowly dying before all those became a thing.  We allowed rimfire pistols but few people shot them after their first few matches.

 

[Chills1994]

6 hours ago, Joe4d said:

Question for folks been around Pre USPSA buying the name. 
Did steel challenge even have a class system ? Did anyone care ? How many shooters did , say a national level match get compared to today ?
Has a class system added  to the sport ? Or was it just done because USPSA had one ?

 

Ahhhh….jeesh….

 

I can’t remember his name now, but I took a USPSA RO class from ….Gary Stevens ???

 

in the fall of 2007 in Indianapolis, so I could RO the 2008 Single Stack Nat’s (in the spring of 2008).

 

He let it slip then in November 2007 that some “umbrella organization” had just bought another shooting organization.  But he would not elaborate on which one.

 

I figured it out a month or two later.

 

The first thing that popped into my head was “USPSA is gonna screw this up with a classification system!"

 

In 2007, NOPE!  SC did not have a classification system.

 

At that time, my local club shot two steel plate…errr….steel challenge matches a month.  First and third Saturday.  The fee was only a dollar.

 

Supposedly some time in 2008 or 2009, then USPSA Prez Michael Voigt called our “steel challenge” match director to ask if our club would join the for real Steel Challenge Shooting Association.

 

Our match director told Voigt to basically piss up a rope….”We have had all the steel targets for years now.  What do we need you for?”

 

 

[Chills1994]

Maybe Gary Anderson???? 
 

called the father of the Single Stack Division???

 

I think he drove a 4th Gen or 5th Gen Mustang to matches.

 

I also think he had the Borg cube as his avatar.

[Joe4d]

I recall Gary Stevens,,but my brain aint what it used to be. The Borg thing sounds familiar,  great  guy... I also got my USPSA CRO from him and served under him at majors.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Joe4d

[shred]

Pretty much the same thing happened at our club.  They'd been shooting Steel Challenge since Chip McCormick won it in the mid 1980s (many of the targets we used when I started were still his old targets) and when USPSA came along and said "we own Steel Challenge now, you need to give us money", they said "WTF for?".  Once USPSA established a classification system and fixed the early insanity of separate memberships they did join up.

 

[ZackJones]

23 hours ago, shred said:

Eh, reduced-size plates are a whole lot easier to move around and store, plus give the same visual target.  Doesn't seem like a big barrier to clubs as they cost about what a 12" round does and they only need two or 3.   Opens up opportunities for shooters that only have 25 yard ranges to practice all the WSSC stages.

 

A Club can do that now if they choose. It obviously won't count towards classification for that given stage but it would provide an opportunity to practice a close approximation of the official stage. 

[jrdoran]

Back to some comments on the proposed changes that Zach posted ( thank you );

 

I found it interesting in some of the anomalies between roundabout and smoke & hope ( 108 / 103 ) where in some divisions roundabout has a lower new PST and in others smoke & hope has a new lower time.  Tried to find a pattern of rifle vs pistol or low ready vs draw, but couldn't.    Things are definitely more precise in the new times;

 

Interested in any insight in how the new PST were derived.     Take RFRI vs RFRO for example.  I guess the optic helps on the smaller plates of roundabout.   

 

While a few are equal, none have a lower PST than Smoke & Hope in current PST.   2022/current -->. https://scsa.org/classification#

Easy Click proposed 2023 PST -->. 2023 Proposed PST

 

 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by jrdoran

[Chills1994]

3 hours ago, shred said:

Pretty much the same thing happened at our club.  They'd been shooting Steel Challenge since Chip McCormick won it in the mid 1980s (many of the targets we used when I started were still his old targets) and when USPSA came along and said "we own Steel Challenge now, you need to give us money", they said "WTF for?".  Once USPSA established a classification system and fixed the early insanity of separate memberships they did join up.

 

Yep, I just looked.

 

Maybe at some point my old, old “local club” did become a Steel Challenge “franchisee” .  However, between the SCSA find a club function and the Practiscore results, it looks like they are no longer affiliated with the SCSA.

 

According to Practiscore, they call it a “steel plate” match.

 

Ohhhh….wellll….

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by Chills1994

[ZackJones]

20 hours ago, jrdoran said:

I found it interesting in some of the anomalies between roundabout and smoke & hope ( 108 / 103 ) where in some divisions roundabout has a lower new PST and in others smoke & hope has a new lower time.  Tried to find a pattern of rifle vs pistol or low ready vs draw, but couldn't.    Things are definitely more precise in the new times;

 

Interested in any insight in how the new PST were derived.     Take RFRI vs RFRO for example.  I guess the optic helps on the smaller plates of roundabout.   

Each stage and division was looked at independently of any other stage and division. I've not tried to look for any tried like you're trying to do. One thing we have done this year is taken out the hand massaging of numbers. For example when we did our review with Mike Foley he wanted changes to be +/- by 0.25. We are now making changes based on what the numbers actually calculate out to. You can see this in OSR for S&H where the change is +0.16. That's what we calculated so that's what we've presented. 

 

 

[hornetx40]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:52 PM, ZackJones said:

 

I've had some informal discussions regarding 8 additional stages that would be based on the current 8. For example SC-111 would be a new version of 5 To Go that clubs with limited width and depth could setup. I've been asked specifically about stages for indoor ranges as well. For the other 7 stages we would design stages using the same plates that we use now on that stage. This would permit clubs to run new stages without having to acquire additional steel. 

 

Retaining your current (highest) classification will always be an option. Selective reclassification is something that each member must opt-in for. 

 

The new stages is a great idea. Allowing clubs with smaller bays to run more stages can't be bad.