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Start Position


cbrussell

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I have a question for all the RO’s on the Forum. When the course description states the “start position” as “relaxed, hands at side,” I have noticed some competitors placing their off/weak hand in the middle of their torso, around the normal belt buckle location. Is this seen as “legal” and if not, do\should RO’s say something at Local or Major matches? I have also noticed some raising/coiling their strong hand moving it closer to the holstered gun rather than having it hang straight down. Again are/should RO’s be drawing attention to and correct this behavior? I always though the competitor’s arms  should be straight, hanging at sides of their body, approximately along the pant side seams. Is there a better way to write the stage description?

I do not want to start a firestorm of RO/Competitor conflicts, I was just curious after viewing some training videos. 

 

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Times change.  That start position, which used to be the default, is no longer in the rules.  As you note, it was nearly impossible to enforce.  "Monkey motions" were essentially unavoidable.

The common start position now is either "wrists below belt" or "wrists above shoulders".  Much easier for shooters to comply.  Whatever monkey motions they want to add in are OK as long as the wrists comply.

 

Edited by George Jones
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I don’t follow.  How is “hands relaxed at side” any different from a WSB stating other start positions?   So everyone can ignore it if they want and use “wrists below belt” when a WSB states “relaxed at side”?

I may be missing something.  

 

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3 hours ago, George Jones said:

Times change.  That start position, which used to be the default, is no longer in the rules.  As you note, it was nearly impossible to enforce.  "Monkey motions" were essentially unavoidable.

The common start position now is either "wrists below belt" or "wrists above shoulders".  Much easier for shooters to comply.  Whatever monkey motions they want to add in are OK as long as the wrists comply.

 

 

The definition of "hands and arms naturally at sides" is clearly illustrated in Appendix E3.  It may not be a default any more, but it sure as hell is defined.

 

If the WSB says that the start position is "hands relaxed at sides" (which means the same to me as "naturally at sides") and you don't assume a pose identical to that show on Appendix E3, I will not start you.

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1 hour ago, jwhittin said:

I don’t follow.  How is “hands relaxed at side” any different from a WSB stating other start positions?   So everyone can ignore it if they want and use “wrists below belt” when a WSB states “relaxed at side”?

I may be missing something.  

 

 

You are.  See appendix E3

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While reviewing both stage designs and classifier diagrams on the USPSA webpage, I did notice a lot of start positions stated as “hands relaxed at sides.” Based on Appendix E3 it seems clear to me that “monkey start positions” in those cases are not allowed and should be handled as stated by “Johnny_Chimpo” above; the competitor is told to comply or will not be started. I think this would be especially important on classifier stages. It appears some course descriptions are using the “wrists below the belt” or “wrists above shoulders” start positions. I guess it is up to the RO to make certain the correct start position stated in the WSB is adhered to by the competitors. It just seems to me that allowing “monkey start positions” either by not enforcing the WSB starting position or by allowing them as part of the WSB, is problematic at best. Knowing USPSA competitors, there is no end to the machinations/contortions they will use to gain an advantage. Just one man’s opinion.

Doesn’t really effect me since I use an hourglass to time my draw. 😀

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23 minutes ago, cbrussell said:

…It just seems to me that allowing “monkey start positions” either by not enforcing the WSB starting position or by allowing them as part of the WSB, is problematic at best. 

How is allowing them as part of the WSB problematic?

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I think that some weird contortions might be the result, however, I guess if the WSB allows it and is flexible, the competitor is free to do what they will. I am a bit old fashioned; “hands relaxed at sides” seem to be pretty clear to me, but I guess RO’s got tired of trying to police this. Kind of reclassifying certain crimes as not prosecutable and then declaring crime is down. However, this is a volunteer sport and the RO’s get enough grief as it is, so I am fine with changing the WSB to avoid conflicts. I just was curious after watching a video on YouTube showing the draw off hand being placed at the center line of the body. Seemed weird to me, but now that I understand that it is acceptable I can’t fault the shooter.

Edited by cbrussell
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40 minutes ago, terrydoc said:

I'm an IPSC RO guy and we use the "as demonstrated" method and we don't start the competitor until they comply. 

I saw that in the rule book; RO is suppose to demonstrate the correct starting position. I like this idea best of all, however, I bet there will still be some that push the boundaries. Personally, I have never shied  away from conflict, but I can see how a volunteer RO would prefer to avoid it. 

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5 hours ago, cbrussell said:

I think that some weird contortions might be the result, however, I guess if the WSB allows it and is flexible, the competitor is free to do what they will. I am a bit old fashioned; “hands relaxed at sides” seem to be pretty clear to me, but I guess RO’s got tired of trying to police this. Kind of reclassifying certain crimes as not prosecutable and then declaring crime is down. However, this is a volunteer sport and the RO’s get enough grief as it is, so I am fine with changing the WSB to avoid conflicts. I just was curious after watching a video on YouTube showing the draw off hand being placed at the center line of the body. Seemed weird to me, but now that I understand that it is acceptable I can’t fault the shooter.

 

If the WSB says wrists below belt, I don't care how the shooter positions his arms so long the wrists are below the bottom edge of the belt.

 

If the WSB says hands naturally or relaxed at sides, the shooter will look like E3 or he won't go.

 

It's pretty binary in my eyes.

 

Same as "facing uprange" which has a very specific definition.  I've corrected several on their monkey posing when starting facing uprange and have never had any pushback.  If I did I'd simply unload the guy and call the next shooter.

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Johnny C is correct.

My late-night post was not phrased correctly.  I was thinking of the old default start position of "standing erect, facing downrange, hands naturally at sides."

The default was removed from the rulebook as was the strict definition of "facing downrange", but the description of "at sides" remains.  I prefer to avoid that as a WSB item, but it still exists in many (older) classifiers and needs to be enforced.

The "below belt" and "above shoulders" are much easier to enforce.

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10 hours ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

 

The definition of "hands and arms naturally at sides" is clearly illustrated in Appendix E3.  It may not be a default any more, but it sure as hell is defined.

 

If the WSB says that the start position is "hands relaxed at sides" (which means the same to me as "naturally at sides") and you don't assume a pose identical to that show on Appendix E3, I will not start you.

your thinking is exactly why the default position was removed. People come in all different shapes, so what is 'natural' and 'relaxed' are going to look different for different people.

 

The sport is far better, and the opportunities for RO-douchery are far lower if we just choose entirely objective criteria for start positions.

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46 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

I think I'm going to start using index fingers touching respective nostrils ... Be interesting to see how that one could get "monkeyed."

 

Don't worry it will be.

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43 minutes ago, GigG said:

 

Don't worry it will be.

there's no such thing as 'monkeying' an objective start position. as long as you comply, you can do whatever else you want, and the RO only has to pay attention to the specified part. That's why you don't see 'hands relaxed naturally at sides' at nationals anymore. Instead, everything is objective. Feet touching start stick, hands touching marks, anywhere inside shooting area, etc... You can lean, you can hunch, you can squat, you can bend your elbows, wutever. You can do what is comfortable for *you*. It might be annoying to the control freaks, but I like it, and it makes big matches simpler and less subject to conflict.

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I'll admit it has gotten better and I haven't been to a Level II or III match in a long time. But at the local level it is still funny to watch the attempts.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

your thinking is exactly why the default position was removed. People come in all different shapes, so what is 'natural' and 'relaxed' are going to look different for different people.

 

The sport is far better, and the opportunities for RO-douchery are far lower if we just choose entirely objective criteria for start positions.

The only douchiness I've ever seen is from douchebags trying to justify their monkey posing as natural or relaxed

 

Anyone with common sense can tell when arms are hanging naturally vs mokey posing regardless of the shooter's anatomy

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17 minutes ago, Johnny_Chimpo said:

The only douchiness I've ever seen is from douchebags trying to justify their monkey posing as natural or relaxed

 

Anyone with common sense can tell when arms are hanging naturally vs mokey posing regardless of the shooter's anatomy

post-18733-0-46963600-1313287958_thumb.jpg

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