Pistol's End of Life

[Gun1]

I want to get into USPSA competition and am curious as to whether or not a gun's actual receiver/frame eventually cracks after X number of rounds just from shooting? I figured if anyone knows the answer to this it's competitive shooters. I'm wondering in particular 2 aluminum guns, a Sig P226 and a Beretta 92; 2 steel gun, a CZ 75 SP-01 and a Kahr MK9; the polymer guns like a Glock or a Springfield; and I'm also curious to know how the modular Sigs, the P320 and P365, hold up. If pistol receivers do indeed crack or become worn out to the point that they're no longer useful just from normal usage with a high round count, I'm guessing that it's from stress points and from the slide ramming into the frame when cycling. Since the P320 and P365s use a firearm control unit and everything else is replaceable and sold a la carte, I'm wondering how these hold up since the slide rails are part of the firearm control unit. Will the firearm control unit wear out and crack the same or will the grip module take the blunt of the trauma meaning the firearm control unit will last indefinitely? Or if I use an AXG aluminum grip module on the P320 will that take the ramming and pressure hence saving the firearm control unit from wear and tear?

 

Thanks!

[Nathanb]

You’re overthinking it a bit. Most guns will not crack frames.  It’s more common in major power factor divisions like open and limited where the ammo is a bit harsher on parts.  I’ve seen plenty of broken guns from use but frames are rare. 

[Gun1]

1 minute ago, Nathanb said:

You’re overthinking it a bit. Most guns will not crack frames.  It’s more common in major power factor divisions like open and limited where the ammo is a bit harsher on parts.  I’ve seen plenty of broken guns from use but frames are rare. 

I was told by a gun range manager that about 150k rounds of factory 9mm ammo would crack most gun frames and about 100k rounds of factory 9mm would crack most slides. Is this not true? Is it only because the guns are abused in some other way?

[Rnlinebacker]

25 minutes ago, Gun1 said:

I was told by a gun range manager that about 150k rounds of factory 9mm ammo would crack most gun frames and about 100k rounds of factory 9mm would crack most slides. Is this not true? Is it only because the guns are abused in some other way?

At that round count you'll probably lose accuracy in your barrel. There's no exact science if the slide will crack. Sometimes they do and most of the time, they don't. If the gun is built well you'll be fine.

 

Start competing and having fun. These things will happen if they are going to

[Gun1]

6 minutes ago, Rnlinebacker said:

At that round count you'll probably lose accuracy in your barrel. There's no exact science if the slide will crack. Sometimes they do and most of the time, they don't. If the gun is built well you'll be fine.

 

Start competing and having fun. These things will happen if they are going to

Yeah, I figured replacing the barrel was going to be a must at that round count. I was wondering regarding cracking a slide or frame because one CS rep from one of these brands said all guns had an expiration date, that they were withholding small explosions within them and would eventually crack and whoever said they wouldn't was lying. But that was just his opinion, I'm not convinced of anything. 

[GrumpyOne]

Had a criend who shot an AMT Hardballer 7"...had several of them. His round count on one them was well over 300k. The barrel had split before and replaced. Eventually, he had to retire them, but not from the frame or slide cracking. The ejector on those was built intonthe frame, and was non replaceable. After 300k+ rounds, it was worn down to a nub and wouldn't eject.

[RJH]

24 minutes ago, Gun1 said:

Yeah, I figured replacing the barrel was going to be a must at that round count. I was wondering regarding cracking a slide or frame because one CS rep from one of these brands said all guns had an expiration date, that they were withholding small explosions within them and would eventually crack and whoever said they wouldn't was lying. But that was just his opinion, I'm not convinced of anything. 

 

Guns do wear out, but it takes a lot of shooting. Most people will sell a gun and go to something new before one wears out in my experience. Open guns seem to wear out the fastest and production guns the least fast generally speaking, but that's not guaranteed. I think the highest round count I've ever put on a gun before swapping it was around 30,000, and it had zero issues when I got rid of it, I was just ready to try something new.

 

I've seen a few open gun barrels crack or blow up over the years, and chopped up slides crack, but overall I've seen frames generally wear out in the slide rails more than cracking. Most of that is what I've seen other people have issues with, I've only had a couple of barrels crack over the years personally

[Gun1]

25 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Guns do wear out, but it takes a lot of shooting. Most people will sell a gun and go to something new before one wears out in my experience. Open guns seem to wear out the fastest and production guns the least fast generally speaking, but that's not guaranteed. I think the highest round count I've ever put on a gun before swapping it was around 30,000, and it had zero issues when I got rid of it, I was just ready to try something new.

 

I've seen a few open gun barrels crack or blow up over the years, and chopped up slides crack, but overall I've seen frames generally wear out in the slide rails more than cracking. Most of that is what I've seen other people have issues with, I've only had a couple of barrels crack over the years personally

In regards to the slide rails wearing out, do they wear out to the point that the frame is no longer usable? And what has been the response of the firearm manufacturer, has it been covered under warranty, or have they claimed it's not covered because it's the pistol's end of life?

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, Gun1 said:

In regards to the slide rails wearing out, do they wear out to the point that the frame is no longer usable? And what has been the response of the firearm manufacturer, has it been covered under warranty, or have they claimed it's not covered because it's the pistol's end of life?

 

The ones that I've seen with the frame rails wore out, the pistol may still work but reliability is going to be an issue and accuracy is going to be an issue.

 

As far as a manufacturer, I have no idea what each individual manufacturer would say. I would assume they would say that that pistol has served it's normal life usage and would not be under warranty. I definitely wouldn't see frame rails wearing out as a defect that would need to be covered under warranty, assuming it didn't happen in 10,000 rounds or something. It would be like if you had a car with 200,000 miles on it and expected the engine warranty to last forever, machines have a lifespan.

 

But generally speaking, if you buy a gun from a quality manufacturer it's going to last you a very long time. If you decide to make GM and are shooting 40,000 rounds a year, your gun may only last you a couple of years, but at that point you'll understand that machines wear out and you'll be ready to buy a new gun anyway. Good luck

[JFlowers]

8 minutes ago, Gun1 said:

In regards to the slide rails wearing out, do they wear out to the point that the frame is no longer usable? And what has been the response of the firearm manufacturer, has it been covered under warranty, or have they claimed it's not covered because it's the pistol's end of life?

 

Even wore out slide rails isn't End of Life as slide rail replacements are available and can be done by a solid gunsmith.  But its not going to be covered since its 100s of 1000s of rounds of wear and tear on the gun, not a manufacturing defect.

[Gun1]

I'm wondering about the Sig P320. It's modular like a Lego gun, but the only defect, per se, is that the fire control unit has the slide rails build into it. So I'm wondering if with enough rounds the slide rails on the P320 FCU will completely wear out? Were it not for the fact that the FCU has the slide rails built in, we could've been looking at the first indestructible firearm. 

[GigG]

2 hours ago, Gun1 said:

I was told by a gun range manager that about 150k rounds of factory 9mm ammo would crack most gun frames and about 100k rounds of factory 9mm would crack most slides. Is this not true? Is it only because the guns are abused in some other way?

 

That is not true.  I had a SA framed 1911 comp gun that fired way in excess of 150K MAJOR .38 Super rounds with no cracks.

 

I've got a Gen 2 Glock 17 that has at least 100K through it. Again no cracks.

 

And trust me.  If you get into the sport and shoot that many rounds you will be buying new guns for reasons that have nothing to do with cracks.

 

But worse case if fails after 150K rounds.  That adds a mere half a cent a shot to the cost of shooting.  It will be the smallest cost associated with firing the gun.

[RJH]

100,000 rounds at 9 at today's prices is about $40,000 bucks. I just thought that was some relative and useful information

[HesedTech]

2 hours ago, Gun1 said:

I was told by a gun range manager that about 150k rounds of factory 9mm ammo would crack most gun frames and about 100k rounds of factory 9mm would crack most slides. Is this not true? Is it only because the guns are abused in some other way?

You need to stop listening to unproven ideas. 

If you get to 150K on any gun without replacing part there is a special reward. 

With regular maintenance and attention to areas of wear your gun will last beyond what the average person will ever see.

 

BTW the Sig 320 will make it to over 100K (my guess from the amount he shoots and number of years with the same gun), I compete with those who have done so. The caveat is regular maintenance.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by HesedTech

[Gun1]

1 minute ago, HesedTech said:

You need to stop listening to unproven ideas. 

If you get to 150K on any gun without replacing part there is a special reward. 

With regular maintenance and attention to areas of wear your gun will last beyond what the average person will ever see.

 

 

I was just wondering because he even has a blog post where he posts all the guns that break at the range, where they break from, and at how many rounds. 

[HesedTech]

Just now, Gun1 said:

I was just wondering because he even has a blog post where he posts all the guns that break at the range, where they break from, and at how many rounds. 

If you hang out with competitors, you'll see some really big use and very reliable guns. The local gun range has some interesting people trying some silly stuff, so it's no wonder they blow up their guns occasionally.

[Gun1]

3 minutes ago, HesedTech said:

If you hang out with competitors, you'll see some really big use and very reliable guns. The local gun range has some interesting people trying some silly stuff, so it's no wonder they blow up their guns occasionally.

This was my thought initially, although the firearms that allegedly break are rentals and according to the posts have to be fired with only factory ammo. 

Privately owned firearms, for sure. Particularly during 2020 when there were no guns at gun stores people started building their own with bits and pieces and I saw some bizarre builds at gun ranges in 2020.

[yigal]

If you like pistols, with a long lifespan check the legendary Sig 210.According to people who had such pistols they fired over 250k  without any fracture.
The main problem for competitions is the  low capacity mags for  the standard div.

also i saw few glocks 17 gen 2 in working condition with more than 350k used with factory ammo. and many military abused  glocks 19 cracked after 200k -250k factory ammo .

cz TSO 9MM is very strong gun too but i don't know how long it will hold .i know about  only 1 with  over 150k .

[Gun1]

10 minutes ago, yigal said:

If you like pistols, with a long lifespan check the legendary Sig 210.According to people who had such pistols they fired over 250k  without any fracture.
The main problem for competitions is the  low capacity mags for  the standard div.

also i saw few glocks 17 gen 2 in working condition with more than 350k used with factory ammo. and many military abused  glocks 19 cracked after 200k -250k factory ammo .

cz TSO 9MM is very strong gun too but i don't know how long it will hold .i know about  only 1 with  over 150k .

Yeah, I've heard some shooters say that Glocks can make it to over 200k. Glock 17 and 19 should be built exactly the same, just different sizes, makes you wonder why the 17 is still going at over 350k rounds while the 19s cracked before 250k. Is not changing the recoil spring assembly really that detrimental to a pistol's frame? Or what other difference could there be?

[yigal]

46 minutes ago, Gun1 said:

Yeah, I've heard some shooters say that Glocks can make it to over 200k. Glock 17 and 19 should be built exactly the same, just different sizes, makes you wonder why the 17 is still going at over 350k rounds while the 19s cracked before 250k. Is not changing the recoil spring assembly really that detrimental to a pistol's frame? Or what other difference could there be?

shorter recoil stroke and more impact. because polymer frame there is no metal to metal battering  and  glock  hold a lot. 

with proper design no problem to make  glock slide  to hold more than  500k .

as i remember that G.G. told to one of ours club member (that with 350) that in glock factory they  shot with glocks17 gen 1 and 2 more than 450k.

Edited June 29, 2022 by yigal

[Johnny_Chimpo]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:16 PM, Gun1 said:

Yeah, I've heard some shooters say that Glocks can make it to over 200k. Glock 17 and 19 should be built exactly the same, just different sizes, makes you wonder why the 17 is still going at over 350k rounds while the 19s cracked before 250k. Is not changing the recoil spring assembly really that detrimental to a pistol's frame? Or what other difference could there be?

 

You'll never get anywhere with this ridiculous overthinking.

 

 

[sfinney]

Back when I used to be serious about Limited, I used to make a point of buying used 2011s with 40k or 50k rounds through them and then running another 40k or 50k through them. Sometimes they needed sears or springs, but usually they just ran.

 

I’ve got a used G19 that’s @ 30 years old and I have no idea how many rounds I’ve shot through it (a lot) but other than springs, it’s all original parts and running strong.

[NoSteel]

In all the pistols you highlight there are so many replacement components that can be easily replaced as they wear out I doubt you would ever see a limit.  As it is,  if I put that many rounds thru a ~$1k gun before it broke I would consider it $ well spent and move on.  Now,  on a $6k to $10k gun,  I would do all I could to make it last.  

[Gun1]

17 minutes ago, NoSteel said:

In all the pistols you highlight there are so many replacement components that can be easily replaced as they wear out I doubt you would ever see a limit.  As it is,  if I put that many rounds thru a ~$1k gun before it broke I would consider it $ well spent and move on.  Now,  on a $6k to $10k gun,  I would do all I could to make it last.  

That's actually what I'm thinking. The initial cost of the gun might be $600, but after all the pistol specific upgrades might end up north of $8k. So I would hate for an $8k gun's frame to suffer something that was not repairable, like a frame crack.

[Johnny_Chimpo]

3 hours ago, Gun1 said:

The initial cost of the gun might be $600, but after all the pistol specific upgrades might end up north of $8k.

 

LOLOL.  Only a fool sinks $8,000 into a $600 pistol to compete in this sport.

 

You'll probably spend six months working up the "best load" too......