Patrick Sweeney Posted December 5, 2005 Author Share Posted December 5, 2005 The larger slide stop is a factory option, and adjustable sights will be, too. The promised 5" 9mm looks to be the uber-Production gun. The mag safety is there because it is perceived as a useful safety feature. If my fellow Moderators will permit a slight digression into things tactical, I'll explain: Mas Ayoob has documented more than a dozen instances where a police officer struggling with an offender was able to save himself from being shot with his own sidearm by dropping the mag and rendering the pistol inoperative. Which doesn't matter to us, but S&W sees a big future in the LE marketplace. For us, the mag disconnector is a "trigger-pull neutral" item. It does not make any difference to the felt trigger pull that the part is in there. You gain nothing by removing it, except the illusory idea that you can fire the pistol in a pinch, lacking the magazine. On this gun, I won't feel the need to remove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 (edited) For us, the mag disconnector is a "trigger-pull neutral" item. It does not make any difference to the felt trigger pull that the part is in there. You gain nothing by removing it, except the illusory idea that you can fire the pistol in a pinch, lacking the magazine. On this gun, I won't feel the need to remove it. Hmm okie .. But when I show clear, drop the slide, the rules ask me to then press the trigger to drop the hammer. How am I going to do that without keeping an empty mag in my pocket like so many HiPower shooters do until they rip the stupid thing out of the gun? I actually dont know if I care if its in there if I was considering this as a self defence gun, but as an IPSC gun thats a serious flaw. Edited to add that I actually think the gun looks promising and I would like to try one out at some point. I just wish they didnt put that silly mag safety in. Edited December 6, 2005 by Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Which doesn't matter to us, but S&W sees a big future in the LE marketplace. For us, the mag disconnector is a "trigger-pull neutral" item. It does not make any difference to the felt trigger pull that the part is in there. You gain nothing by removing it, except the illusory idea that you can fire the pistol in a pinch, lacking the magazine. On this gun, I won't feel the need to remove it. I am curious as to why they would offer the gun to LE without the magazine safety if they see a future in that market. I just wish those of us who have no need ofr it would have the option to order one without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Yes good old Mas AYOOB, the you need a 37 pound trigger pull to be safe in court guy. Let's see about 99% of all LE are carrying Glocks, SIG, Beretta or HK, all w/o a stupid mag safety. Humm guess it aint real important. KISS just one more thing to go wrong when the SHTF. I'm sure there are cases where it helped and others where it was a problem. I perfer proper training over a gadget safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 Aren't there some states where you can't sell a handgun if it does not have a magazine disconect? I saw this feature as S&W bowing down to political correctness. The only thing that I want to stop my handgun from firing is my trigger finger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I perfer proper training over a gadget safety.Chris - You're right, of course, but training costs money, and police admin types are always trying to save funds. It's cheaper to put in mag safeties. That way they can fund that life-saving cultural sensitivity training. It just takes an extra couple of seconds for the RO/SO to check that the mag is empty and watch the shooter insert it and pull the trigger. We've been putting up with this with BHPs and S&Ws for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 It just takes an extra couple of seconds for the RO/SO to check that the mag is empty and watch the shooter insert it and pull the trigger. We've been putting up with this with BHPs and S&Ws for years. But why should we? S&W is free to sell whatever they want but unless the mag safety can be removed with a screwdriver and 5 min, then the M&P proabably won't make a big splash in USPSA. We carry enough gear around, and I rather not have an empty mag with me, and add another fumble prone step to the procedure. But then, maybe its just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincent Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I know an LEO sales rep at SIG and in a conversation a while back he said that LE quotes often require a magazine safety and SIG adds a magazine safety to many of the pistols it sells to LE groups. S&W is just covering it's bases. Magazine safeties do suck for us though. Maybe they will sell it as a factory option so a production shooter can legally remove it. Maybe someone could run this up the flag pole with someone on the S&W shooting team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 6, 2005 Author Share Posted December 6, 2005 The standard gun comes with the mag safety and the lock gizmo. If you buy enough, S&W will delete either or both. Since the factory will do it, I don't see where USPSA rules would prohibit it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I think the mag disconnect is a BAD idea for training, tactically, or whatever reason you give, for this simple reason; you'll have a bunch of folks HALF trained in gun handling, be they cops or military. The movies make removing the mag the ONLY step needed to make a gun safe as a ball of yarn, but we know better. Perpetuating this dangerous myth is irresponsible. We have a generation that calls magazine "clips" for this same kind of half training during WWII. I don't normally rant about tacticool gadgets and police toys, but that's just dumb. .....and what if I reload and fail to seat the mag? Anyone thought of that? No not in a USPSA match but with a machete weilding biker coming after me. I"m a 92# woman who got her state proscribed 2 hours of annual training, and now my bang bang won't make noise. IT IS S&W leaping to lap at the hand of political correctness before they are even asked to and keep dumb features of their other designs. Sorry for the rant, but damnit, I wish SMith would quit this and get back in it. They should've built the USP instead of the Sigma. It's a matter of leading or following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crusher Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I am no fan of gizmos designend to make me safer, heck thats my job. HOWEVER many mucky mucks in the Fed/State/County law enforcement community think otherwise. As far as S&W selling guns, the bulk of their semi auto sales go to LE both here (U.S.) and abroad, these gizmos are what those admins want for their boys. I can't say as I blame S&W for adding gizmos to push their product to the largest demo-graphic group, the "inexperienced", with some percieved "safety" device, but OPTIONAL would be nice for those owners above the unconsiously unskilled level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rubberneck Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 I am no fan of gizmos designend to make me safer, heck thats my job. HOWEVER many mucky mucks in the Fed/State/County law enforcement community think otherwise. As far as S&W selling guns, the bulk of their semi auto sales go to LE both here (U.S.) and abroad, these gizmos are what those admins want for their boys. I can't say as I blame S&W for adding gizmos to push their product to the largest demo-graphic group, the "inexperienced", with some percieved "safety" device, but OPTIONAL would be nice for those owners above the unconsiously unskilled level. If they are going to make both versions then they should offer the version without the magazine safety to civilians. I have no fear of getting locked in a death struggle with a bad guy over my sidearm. To me the feature is 100% totally useless. I just wonder why if the feature is so popular amongst LE agencies why they are even bothering to offer the gun without the mag safety to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted December 6, 2005 Share Posted December 6, 2005 It's a toss-up with LE agencies. Some specify with mag safety, others specify without. Best bet is to make both, from an LE sales perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtypool40 Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 It's a toss-up with LE agencies. Some specify with mag safety, others specify without. Best bet is to make both, from an LE sales perspective. good point, and if it's a configuarable like the USP sort of is, then SMith might be on the right track. I really wish they had started with a new design. I can see Sigma poking out all over that thing, notably the trigger and mag release. Does it take Sigma mags? I'm sorry, I bit on a Mas Ayoob article and spent my hard earned cash on one of those POS's as my first gun back ten or eleven years ago. It threw brass AT my eye. Now who does that, honestly?!?! More than once hot brass made it over the gap between glasses and eye and sizzled on my lower eyelid. Gosh, does that suck!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted December 7, 2005 Share Posted December 7, 2005 The magazines are metal and unique to the M&P . They are a Mec Gar design. 17 rounds in 9mm and 15 in .40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patrick Sweeney Posted December 7, 2005 Author Share Posted December 7, 2005 It may look Sigma to you, but the only thing Sigma about it is the shape of the trigger. Everything else is either new or newly-engineered and an improvement over previous designs, S&W and others. Were I not on a wheelgun quest in competition, I'd be seriously thinking about the M&P for Production. As for the subject of magazine safeties in general, it approaches religion with some people. Do we say Mass in Latin or not? Does the priest hand you the wafer or place it on your tongue? (Similar applicaitons for other religions.) In the past they fought wars over such trivia. At least in the M&P it can be removed, and if left in makes no difference in trigger pull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted December 8, 2005 Share Posted December 8, 2005 This just in from S&W HQ....M&P's slated to begin shipping to wholesale this week. This first 90 days worth will ship sans internal lock mechanism per consumer feedback. Internal lock equipped guns will ship in March 2006 (sorry California et al). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attila Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 This just in from S&W HQ....M&P's slated to begin shipping to wholesale this week. This first 90 days worth will ship sans internal lock mechanism per consumer feedback. Internal lock equipped guns will ship in March 2006 (sorry California et al). 9's, 40's, or both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 The initial rollout is .40's only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Middle Man Posted December 9, 2005 Share Posted December 9, 2005 Yes, .40 Smith & Wesson initally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLD Posted December 14, 2005 Share Posted December 14, 2005 I seriously doubt SW or Beretta will knock off the Glock from top spot. Smith makes great revolvers but let's face it there autos suck. I won't debate that knocking King Glock off the mountain will be very difficult, but what's wrong with the 3rd generation pistols? (Except that they are not black and "tactical") I don't think you can find a better value anywhere than a used 3rd generation Smith auto for general pistol duties, including the stock classifications of shooting sports. Cool? Maybe not. Effective? Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revchuck Posted December 18, 2005 Share Posted December 18, 2005 Folks - just FYI - feedback from LEOs who have had a chance to fire their departments' T&E versions: http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee/forum...904/m/191109629 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rtr Posted January 17, 2006 Share Posted January 17, 2006 FYI Shooting Gallery has what appears to be a whole episode on this gun this week. It's on The Outdoor Channel. I believe it re-airs on Wed and Fri. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 (edited) Tag for any updated info. Looks interesting. Edited January 21, 2006 by chp5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitestir Posted January 21, 2006 Share Posted January 21, 2006 I have 1 and did a short review. It is on page 5 of this thread: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&thr...6p&pagenumber=1 Here are some detail pics I took of mine: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&thr...highlight=m%26p HTH Shawn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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