S&W M&P

[revchuck]

If someone has one..they should submit the query to USPSA ASAP so it can be added..

Since there was an article in Front Sight on the M&P, it's a good bet that it has already been done. OTOH, it wouldn't hurt to have them receive it twice.

[Flexmoney]

It's not currently on the list.

And, if they follow the guidelines... 2,000, available for one year

[Clay1]

If you remove the mag disconnect it will not be IDPA compliant if that matters to you.

I talked to my IDPA AC about that. He says that if it is offered by the factory without magazine disconnector, that it is OK to shoot in IDPA. I figure if I order one without disconnector and I take delivery of it that way, I am not going to ask whether S&W left it out or if it is in the dealer's trashcan.

They are only available to LEO so if you aren't a cop ...

Yes, you can lie if you want and say you bought it from a LEO.

[Bigbadaboom]

welcome aboard, cool avitar.

For me I have the Glock and like a LOT of shooters on here, can't wait to try the M&P.

For one if you shoot a lot, the grip angle is close and can be tweaked a little.

First thing I did in the shop was look at something and throw it up to see where the sights were.

With the Glock I'd be looking at the top of the slide, with the M&P they were right there, about like an XD.

Speaking of which the XD is not a bad way to go either. Try them out, grab what works for you.

D.P., I'll have an M&P at Tittusville tomorrow. I'll let ya shoot it.

[John Thompson]

I tried all three grip inserts and suprisingly the biggest one is the one that puts the front sight right in the middle when doing natural point of aim drills.

[Jim Watson]

They are only available to LEO so if you aren't a cop ...

Yes, you can lie if you want and say you bought it from a LEO.

I don't have to lie about anything. If S&W won't sell me a gun to order, I know some cops.

Edited March 3, 2006 by Jim Watson

[Kevin Kline]

John,

I agree. When testing it for our team, I also opted for the biggest insert. I really like the palm swell on it, dont you?

[chp5]

I handled one today at a gun store. I really like the feel. The trigger way a little grity, but you couldn't feel it at speed.

The reset was not as pronounced as a Glock. I guess the reset distance to be near that of a 3.5# Glock connector. Hopefully the reset can be shortened by a smith or a "garage smith" (a/k/a me).

The mag release was very easy to hit without shifting my grip. I was very tempted to buy it, but the $550 I just shelled out for a new 3 gun scope kept me sane.

I will probably wait to hear more feedback from other shooters, but I'll likely buy one.

Price was $579 BTW.

[Clay1]

They are only available to LEO so if you aren't a cop ...

Yes, you can lie if you want and say you bought it from a LEO.

I don't have to lie about anything. If S&W won't sell me a gun to order, I know some cops.

From the IDPA rulebook, cut and pasted:

"1. Non-IDPA-Legal Modifications for ALL Divisions

The following modifications are NOT ALLOWED IN ANY DIVISION unless otherwise specifically mentioned.

A. Compensators of any type including hybrid or ported barrels.

B. Add-on weights for a competitive advantage (this includes, but is not limited to, weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods, brass magazine wells, weighted grips).

C. Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing.

D. Sights of non-standard configuration (i.e. Ghost rings, Bo-Mar rib, etc.).

E. Disconnection or disabling of any safety device on any gun.

F. Lights mounted on guns."

Item E speaks to this. Don't confuse USPSA rules with IDPA rules. Don't shoot the messanger, I was just trying to avoid a problem for you in competition. I personally don't like magazine disconnects either and personally am not interested in any firearm that has them. No one says that you have to shoot IDPA. Just for your info that's all.

Rick

[GeorgeInNePa]

They are only available to LEO so if you aren't a cop ...

Yes, you can lie if you want and say you bought it from a LEO.

I don't have to lie about anything. If S&W won't sell me a gun to order, I know some cops.

From the IDPA rulebook, cut and pasted:

"1. Non-IDPA-Legal Modifications for ALL Divisions

The following modifications are NOT ALLOWED IN ANY DIVISION unless otherwise specifically mentioned.

A. Compensators of any type including hybrid or ported barrels.

B. Add-on weights for a competitive advantage (this includes, but is not limited to, weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods, brass magazine wells, weighted grips).

C. Heavy and/or cone style barrels without a barrel bushing.

D. Sights of non-standard configuration (i.e. Ghost rings, Bo-Mar rib, etc.).

E. Disconnection or disabling of any safety device on any gun.

F. Lights mounted on guns."

Item E speaks to this. Don't confuse USPSA rules with IDPA rules. Don't shoot the messanger, I was just trying to avoid a problem for you in competition. I personally don't like magazine disconnects either and personally am not interested in any firearm that has them. No one says that you have to shoot IDPA. Just for your info that's all.

Rick

[rubberneck]

E. Disconnection or disabling of any safety device on any gun.

Item E speaks to this. Don't confuse USPSA rules with IDPA rules. Don't shoot the messanger, I was just trying to avoid a problem for you in competition. I personally don't like magazine disconnects either and personally am not interested in any firearm that has them. No one says that you have to shoot IDPA. Just for your info that's all.

Rick

I think you are missing the point. No one will ever be able to call a shooter on this since both variants exsist. For all the SO knows the gun came from the factory that way or it was bought by a LEO.

You would be able to knock me over with a feather if an SO ever borught it up in the first place let alone disallowing the gun in a match. Since it gives the shooter no advantage and doesn't make the gun unsafe I wouldn't feel obligated to let the SO that I had it removed. It is in the rule book because the lawyers wanted it there. No more no less.

Edited March 4, 2006 by rubberneck

[Clay1]

You're probably right, I'm missing the point that the only one that would know that you are cheating is you. If you don't see that as an issue then nothing that I will say is going to change your mind.

I've been called a gamer many times, I just happen to believe in playing by the rules no matter what I personally think of them.

[Jim Watson]

I'm not planning on cheating, I am planning to buy a gun without the gimmick, not to remove it. Now if S&W won't sell me one, maybe a cop will.

Do I want one bad enough to tell my dealer to deliver a pistol without disconnect and carefully not ask whether he wholesaled it without one or took it out himself? That might be considered intellectually dishonest.

Will the hypothetical 5" adjustable sight 9mm target model have a disconnect?

Hard to tell.

A non-cop, I can't buy a S&W PPC 1500 probably because because it lacks one.

But on the other hand, they didn't feel a need to add one to their 1911 mutants or to the Smith & Walther models.

One thing sure, I will still be able to shoot my other guns without such impediments to showing clear.

Heck, maybe the hypotetical 5" adjustable sight 9mm target model will be so wonderful as to overcome my objections to the monkey motion required to clear a disconnector gun.

Riiiight.

[GeorgeInNePa]

You're probably right, I'm missing the point that the only one that would know that you are cheating is you. If you don't see that as an issue then nothing that I will say is going to change your mind.

I've been called a gamer many times, I just happen to believe in playing by the rules no matter what I personally think of them.

You have got to be kidding me!

If you get one without, that's ok. If you get one with, you can't remove to make it like the ones that come without? That's cheating?

[Robin Taylor]

Hey all,

Just e-mailed with John Amidon about the M&P. For the S&W M&P to become Production-legal, S&W has to request it be listed, then file the appropriate paperwork through him.

As he said, it's not something that just happens, "the manufacturers have to seek it."

Robin Taylor

Front Sight magazine

[rubberneck]

You're probably right, I'm missing the point that the only one that would know that you are cheating is you. If you don't see that as an issue then nothing that I will say is going to change your mind.

I've been called a gamer many times, I just happen to believe in playing by the rules no matter what I personally think of them.

How is it cheating? You gain no advantage what so ever by not having it in your gun. I guess that would make me a cheater rather than a person who ignores a rule that has zero impact on the outcome of a sporting event.

What makes matters even worse is you can have a situation where there are two shooters using the M&P one has a gun that came without it and one is in the original factory configuration. Should I consider the guy that has one without the mag disconnect because he is a LEO or knows an LEO a cheater? You might want to re-examine the sheer stupidity of the rule and what you said in response before you start lecturing me on cheating.

Where I come from people don't take to kindly to what you are implying.

[Chuck Anderson]

It's cheating because there is a rule that specifically precludes it. If you want to buy an LE gun that doesn't have it, go for it. If you want to bug S&W till they see the error of their ways, go for it. If you want to deliberately remove a part in violation of the rules, cheat away.

[rubberneck]

It's cheating because there is a rule that specifically precludes it. If you want to buy an LE gun that doesn't have it, go for it. If you want to bug S&W till they see the error of their ways, go for it. If you want to deliberately remove a part in violation of the rules, cheat away.

And I was told by a person the SO'd the last Nationals that there told specifcally not to look for it or call people on it. If they don't care about it at Nationals I won't lose sleep over a couple guys who hide behind screen names while calling others cheaters.

[Clay1]

My name is Rick Ingle. I didn't write the rules.

George, you probably know the rules better than I. I could be wrong. Could you please direct me to something in the rule book that says that you can remove the safety if another gun like it without that option is manufactured? I am open to any other info that you have.

Again, my specific example was for IDPA not USPSA. Maybe I am just a simple guy but if you try to circumvent the rules I don't know what else to call it besides cheating.

Like I said before, if you don't see a problem with that then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

If there is something in the rules to allow you to disable a safety because another model doesn't have it, I will be more than willing to accept that, please just point me in the right direction. Thanks,

Rick Ingle

Clay1 on the web

[GeorgeInNePa]

My name is Rick Ingle. I didn't write the rules.

George, you probably know the rules better than I. I could be wrong. Could you please direct me to something in the rule book that says that you can remove the safety if another gun like it without that option is manufactured? I am open to any other info that you have.

Again, my specific example was for IDPA not USPSA. Maybe I am just a simple guy but if you try to circumvent the rules I don't know what else to call it besides cheating.

Like I said before, if you don't see a problem with that then I won't be able to convince you otherwise.

If there is something in the rules to allow you to disable a safety because another model doesn't have it, I will be more than willing to accept that, please just point me in the right direction. Thanks,

Rick Ingle

Clay1 on the web

Here is my point, it's the same gun. The same model. Some will have it, some won't. If I buy one used and the magazine disconect isn't in there, should I put one in? Maybe that one came with it and a cheater took it out.

[mpolans]

Wow, the mentality in support of this rule is very illuminating if it is representative of all of IDPA...

For those that are tired of putting up with that sort of nonsense, welcome to USPSA Production!

[Patrick Sweeney]

Settle down, lads. Perhaps a bit of perspective is in order. Lets take the S&W 59 series as an example. S&W has made them with and without Novak sights. They've made them with flat and arched grips. They make them with and without magazine disconnectors. So if I buy one dirt-cheap that is non-Novak, arched and with a mag disconnect, and re-build it to Novak, flat and non-disconnect, what have I done? I've duplicated an existing model S&W has made. The model I prefer to shoot.

Now, I could wait, and pay more, at some future time when I find that second pistol, and pass on the first one. But why should I? In making the first into the second I'm not doing anything S&W hasn't done themselves.

And how can anyone get fussy over removing a mag disconnector, when we can install Bo-mars on a PD gun, something no manufacturer offers?

Why is the "no safety removal" rule in there? To prevent shooters from pinning grip safeties. I'll bet no one thought to exclude mag disconnectors from the rule when it was being formulated, and once it was in print no one could amend it.

If removing a magazine safety pegs your "cheating gamer" meter, you're going to have to look into blood pressure meds, or you'll blow a gasket.

[Vlad]

It's not currently on the list.

And, if they follow the guidelines... 2,000, available for one year

What guideline is that?

[GeorgeInNePa]

Settle down, lads. Perhaps a bit of perspective is in order. Lets take the S&W 59 series as an example. S&W has made them with and without Novak sights. They've made them with flat and arched grips. They make them with and without magazine disconnectors. So if I buy one dirt-cheap that is non-Novak, arched and with a mag disconnect, and re-build it to Novak, flat and non-disconnect, what have I done? I've duplicated an existing model S&W has made. The model I prefer to shoot.

Now, I could wait, and pay more, at some future time when I find that second pistol, and pass on the first one. But why should I? In making the first into the second I'm not doing anything S&W hasn't done themselves.

And how can anyone get fussy over removing a mag disconnector, when we can install Bo-mars on a PD gun, something no manufacturer offers?

Why is the "no safety removal" rule in there? To prevent shooters from pinning grip safeties. I'll bet no one thought to exclude mag disconnectors from the rule when it was being formulated, and once it was in print no one could amend it.

If removing a magazine safety pegs your "cheating gamer" meter, you're going to have to look into blood pressure meds, or you'll blow a gasket.

Nope, no can do Patrick. It's in the rules.

I'm sorry, that would make you a cheater, and that makes the baby jesus cry.

[rubberneck]

Settle down, lads. Perhaps a bit of perspective is in order. Lets take the S&W 59 series as an example. S&W has made them with and without Novak sights. They've made them with flat and arched grips. They make them with and without magazine disconnectors. So if I buy one dirt-cheap that is non-Novak, arched and with a mag disconnect, and re-build it to Novak, flat and non-disconnect, what have I done? I've duplicated an existing model S&W has made. The model I prefer to shoot.

Now, I could wait, and pay more, at some future time when I find that second pistol, and pass on the first one. But why should I? In making the first into the second I'm not doing anything S&W hasn't done themselves.

And how can anyone get fussy over removing a mag disconnector, when we can install Bo-mars on a PD gun, something no manufacturer offers?

Why is the "no safety removal" rule in there? To prevent shooters from pinning grip safeties. I'll bet no one thought to exclude mag disconnectors from the rule when it was being formulated, and once it was in print no one could amend it.

If removing a magazine safety pegs your "cheating gamer" meter, you're going to have to look into blood pressure meds, or you'll blow a gasket.

Thank god I was beginning to wonder if I had lost my mind. As you know hundreds of thousands of P-35's were built without the the mag disconnect which would be ok per IDPA rules but heaven help my cheating heart if I buy a MkIII and remove it. Yeah that makes sense.

For the record Rick I always understood that cheating was breaking the rules to gain an advantage or that is at least the common understand of the use of the word "cheating". I am still waiting for anyone to tell my advantage I would gain by removing it.

The fact of the matter is was that the rule was put into place because guys were demanding that HQ put it in writting that it was ok to use a gun with a modified safety. After all who wants to drive 300 miles to a match only to be told that their gun was considered unsafe because of a modified safety. In asking for it in writting it put HQ between a rock and a hard place. If they did put in writing and something bad happens they are screwed. So they made it illegal and then promptly went about not enforcing the rule.