CZ TSO vs 2011 for USPSA Limited

[beltfedgoodness]

Hello everyone, So originally I was dead set on a 2011 for Limited division. After handling a CZ TSO I'm wondering if I'd be dumb to save myself ~$2K and just get the TSO and run that? Has anyone switched from a TSO to a 2011? if so what has your experience been? Or less likely, has anyone switched from a 2011 to a TSO? Thanks in advance for any input!

[DustyGold]

In my opinion it really comes down to what works best for you. Perfect example is Max Michele outshooting everyone at a recent match with a Sig CO gun. That includes everyone in open and limited.  Get what feels best to you and get good with it 

[zzt]

I switched from a highly customized TS to a 2011 for no other reason than bore height and grip angle.  Switching between the two gun required a week of dry fire to get the sights to come up correctly, automatically.  Since every other pistol, save one, is a 1911 or 2011, I decided to stick with that format.  So the TS sits in the case gathering dust.  I've though about selling it several times.  I really like the pistol even though I don't shoot it anymore.

 

IMO, if you are not going back and forth, there are several advantages to the TS/TSO over a 2011 in Limited.  The beavertail is deeper, especially if you have recontoured the grip as I did.  That lets you get deeper into the gun.  The bore is lower than on a 2011.  That brings the sights back quicker, because there is less muzzle rise.  If you smooth and recontour the lobes of the rear sight it becomes a very convenient slide racker.  Magazines always work and do not require feed lip tuning and the like.   A TS/TSO is ready to go out of the box.  Add extended base pads and you are good to go.  Also, you'll pay a lot less than a 2011 kit. 

 

All that being said, there are some disadvantages.  To make it an ultimate pistol it needs work.  A grip reduction and recontour, even with the TSO.  The stock internals wear quickly, as in visible wear in just one season.  I eventually had CGW replace the internals with race parts and it made a big difference.  Everything worked as new and stayed that way.  I also had the slide lightened.  It was an improvement.  By the time I was done the gun cost about the same as a stock STI, but ran waaaay better.  If you are going for a 2011 DO NOT buy an entry level gun.  You'll have the same problems as with a stock TS/TSO.  Buy a good semi-custom unit with top notch internals.

 

The 2011 also has advantages. You can change anything on it and have a bazillion options for doing so. You can buy any number of holsters that work and most allow for a very smooth draw.  There is only one for the TS.  Everything else is hit or miss.  Same thing with thumb rests.

 

Here are a couple of pics of the grip reduction on the TS.  I also undercut the trigger guard.  I had CGW Ceracoat it while they did the other work.

Edited May 16, 2022 by zzt

[Jjju187]

I owned a TSO and shot it for a season. It had a great trigger,  I had an oversized safety, thumb rest and Lok palm swell grips. I loved the gun, but fealt it was just a bit small/awkward once I had installed the upgrades. The position of the thumb safety also caused some issues when gripping for me. I would recommend you consider what I will look like after your preferred upgrades. For reference, I wear a Large size glove. I finally gave up and currently have a 2011 Limited being built by Don. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Jjju187

[motosapiens]

zzt's post above is full of great info. I switched from an older tac sport to a 2011 because I was also competing seriously in SS and it made switching between the divisions easier. My tac sport was completely stock, and it was imho a better and more reliable gun than a stock 2011 costing almost twice as much. I personally like the large grip, but not everyone does. 

 

It's not better than a high-end 2011, like a custom gun, or an atlas titan, but taking some weight out of the slide would help, and it would still be more reliable than those guns. I literally never had even one single malfunction with my tac sport in 6 months or a year of shooting it every week at matches and practicing a couple hundred rounds a week. didn't have to do any magazine tuning either. just bought extensions, put the mag in, and pulled the trigger.

[MuayThaiJJ]

I have worked really hard on both my TSO and Gold Team to get the triggers to match my 2011 and 1911s. So, for feel - 2011 is easier but it sure is sweet having a glass rod breaking CZ/Tanfo:

 

[obsessiveshooter]

I started with a Glock and was dreaming of a 2011, till I finally held on in my hands.  It felt even more like a 2x4 than my glock.  When I picked up a (old style) TS, I knew it was for me. Fit to your hands can't be overstated.  I bought the TS and it has run flawless for years and years, with no maintenance but springs.  That alone is priceless.  I could focus on shooting instead of getting my pistol to run. 

 

The customization options for 2011 vs TSO are overblown in my opinion.  You can get triggers for different length of pull for both.  Sights are sights, you don't need a million options. There are probably 5 magwell options for the TS now, so one of those ought to work for you. There's a million CZ grips out there and it's way cheaper and easier to try new CZ grips than on a 2011.  If there's one off the shelf holster that works perfect, do you need three others, especially with an adjustable hanger?

 

One thing the 2011 has over the TS is the safety.  The factory one sucks, and with my XL hands it's hard to flick off without reaching around the backstrap, making a scoop draw impossible.  There aren't many aftermarket options for the CZ safety, and the CZC one is huge and digs into your hand with a textbook canted high weak hand grip.  It's shape encouraged me to (1) lay my thumb up and over it and sort of crank down (2) place the web of my strong hand in a spot on the beavertail to accommodated that thumb placement   (3) apply strong hand pressure in the wrong way, screwing with my trigger finger dexterity and (4) build my weak hand grip around the location and size of the safety.

  

I'm just a A class shooter, but I generally shoot and hang with the Ms.  I've always been plenty fast on the trigger.  This whole thumb safety things is part of some fine tuning I'm trying to do with my gun handling, addressing trigger freeze and pushing shots.  It sucks to realize I need to retrain my grip after things have become so automatic.  I need my grip to be more like a 1911 grip where you flick the thumb safety off during the draw and it's out of the way after that, not dictating your hand placement.  I'm currently in the process of grinding on the CZC safety to make it more like that. 

 

[deerslayer]

1 hour ago, obsessiveshooter said:

One thing the 2011 has over the TS is the safety.  The factory one sucks, and with my XL hands it's hard to flick off without reaching around the backstrap, making a scoop draw impossible.  There aren't many aftermarket options for the CZ safety, and the CZC one is huge and digs into your hand with a textbook canted high weak hand grip.  It's shape encouraged me to (1) lay my thumb up and over it and sort of crank down (2) place the web of my strong hand in a spot on the beavertail to accommodated that thumb placement   (3) apply strong hand pressure in the wrong way, screwing with my trigger finger dexterity and (4) build my weak hand grip around the location and size of the safety.

I have a TS2 and played with the huge CZC extended safety and hated it.  I recently found one of these (actually the southpaw version) and am a lot happier:

 

https://www.ericgrauffelonlineshop.com/en/cz-shadow-2-orange/926-18106-cz-safety-extended-one-side-shadow-2-9384045005444.html#/83-tanfoglio_parts-right_hander

 

It’s not quite 1911-ish, but it’s pretty good.  My TS2 actually came with the right handed version in the link.  It is higher than most of the safeties I’ve seen on TSOs.  Everybody in the US was out of stock but ordering from France was no big deal.  

Edited May 20, 2022 by deerslayer

[zzt]

1 hour ago, obsessiveshooter said:

Fit to your hands can't be overstated.

 

Quite true.  I started out with a stock TS because several friends had them and raved about them.  I had no time to build a 2011, so TS it was.  I hated the grip.  The fat wooden grips were slick and too large for my hands.  I tried the CZC Aluminum thin grips.  No joy.  I tried something else, but can't remember what just now.  I also had trouble with the safety and the really long mag release.

 

I finally decided to rectify all of that.  I did a grip reduction to remove the fake checkering, deepen the beavertail and undercut the trigger guard. I also ground a lot off the mag release.  Strips of Alchin grip tape strips on the front and back straps gave a secure grip.  Adding Lok thin grips with the thumb grove made it the cat's meow.   No matter how sweaty my hands were, the gun didn't move.  And, I was able to release a mag without shifting my grip.  Operating the thumb safety became a snap.  Muzzle rise was also minimized, because I was deeper and higher on the gun.  The lightened slide also helped.

 

I went through exactly the same process when I decided to switch to a 2011.  The only difference was I tried OPs stuff instead of buying, trying and discarding.  I did not find a grip I liked until a gunsmith at an LIII match displayed a prototype Cheely e2 grip.  Perfect.  So I started building the gun and had to wait 6 months for the grip.  Now the gun feels like a natural extension of my hand.

[CC3D]

On 5/20/2022 at 10:08 AM, obsessiveshooter said:

I started with a Glock and was dreaming of a 2011, till I finally held on in my hands.  It felt even more like a 2x4 than my glock.  When I picked up a (old style) TS, I knew it was for me. Fit to your hands can't be overstated.  I bought the TS and it has run flawless for years and years, with no maintenance but springs.  That alone is priceless.  I could focus on shooting instead of getting my pistol to run. 

 

The customization options for 2011 vs TSO are overblown in my opinion.  You can get triggers for different length of pull for both.  Sights are sights, you don't need a million options. There are probably 5 magwell options for the TS now, so one of those ought to work for you. There's a million CZ grips out there and it's way cheaper and easier to try new CZ grips than on a 2011.  If there's one off the shelf holster that works perfect, do you need three others, especially with an adjustable hanger?

 

One thing the 2011 has over the TS is the safety.  The factory one sucks, and with my XL hands it's hard to flick off without reaching around the backstrap, making a scoop draw impossible.  There aren't many aftermarket options for the CZ safety, and the CZC one is huge and digs into your hand with a textbook canted high weak hand grip.  It's shape encouraged me to (1) lay my thumb up and over it and sort of crank down (2) place the web of my strong hand in a spot on the beavertail to accommodated that thumb placement   (3) apply strong hand pressure in the wrong way, screwing with my trigger finger dexterity and (4) build my weak hand grip around the location and size of the safety.

  

I'm just a A class shooter, but I generally shoot and hang with the Ms.  I've always been plenty fast on the trigger.  This whole thumb safety things is part of some fine tuning I'm trying to do with my gun handling, addressing trigger freeze and pushing shots.  It sucks to realize I need to retrain my grip after things have become so automatic.  I need my grip to be more like a 1911 grip where you flick the thumb safety off during the draw and it's out of the way after that, not dictating your hand placement.  I'm currently in the process of grinding on the CZC safety to make it more like that. 

 

Very well said here. I have personally never had issues with the safety, but the newer TSO's have the in- between length between the old TS and the oversized CZC safety. Not sure which one originally gave obsessive problems but just something to keep in mind. I have small to medium sized hands and the TSO fits me perfectly. 

 

I cant imagine that spending the extra few hundred to get an entry level 2011 is worth it over a TSO. Custom built multi-thousand dollar guns is an entirely different ballgame 

[zzt]

Here is a picture of the gun I described above.  The thin LOK grips are not on yet.  I put a dot on it so I could shoot SCSA Open before I built a dedicated 1911 Open gun for SCSA.  The top of the slide was lightened also.  Amazingly enough, this gun works and draws smoothly from an Everglades MRH holster meant for 2011s.  It runs 100% and shoots same hole groups at 15 yards with major or minor ammo.

 

 

[beltfedgoodness]

Thanks everyone! I shot my TSO today and it is amazing! It Was definitely the right move for now. Anyone know how to remove some pre-travel from the trigger?

[obsessiveshooter]

There should be set screws that adjust pre and over travel.  Watch your hammer and sear engagement to make sure you don't adjust too much.  There's video and threads on this. 

[lfine]

FWIW, I've tried both and wound up back with my TSO. I loved the 2011 I tried out (and cost about 2x the CZ total) but the TSO just fits my hand perfectly. Just lucky, I guess.  

 

(Of course, I changed the safety, improved the trigger, tried some new grips...)

 

[scroadkill]

I ran TSOs for 2 years.. seems like as I got faster and pushed the gun harder I would start dropping mikes I couldn't explain. I think I was pushing the trigger when rushed. In hindsight I think my medium-small hands and the fairly large TSO frame with stock trigger were my problem. I should have tried one of the reduced reach triggers first before making the 2011 jump.. Fitting a gun and trigger to your hand and reach is a big thing as things get faster.

Then I tried I an atlas nemesis.. a year of matches later I got a bit miffed with the evo2 grip size and overall weight.

now sporting a lighted 6" 2011 with aluminum cheely L2 and short SVI trigger.  love this set up.

[obsessiveshooter]

Reviving a dead thread to add to it...

 

Ive been shooting my TS in Limited for years.  I recently was lent an Atlas Artemis to shoot for a couple matches.  I hate to say it, but it just does everything better.

For me, with zero dryfire, the improvement was dramatic.  

 

On hoser stages, the Atlas can be shot much faster, because of the trigger difference. 

When shooting fast, the 2nd shot is closer to the first, because of the trigger.

Reloads are smoother, because of the shape, weight and finish of the mags. I don't really struggle with reloads with the CZ, but the difference was glaring. 

 

For me, I think I saw an instant roughly 6% gain, as an A class guy that shoots with the Ms.  That is HUGE bump.   

Granted, the 2011 I borrowed sells for $6200 new, so I don't know what I would have thought of a more 'average' 2011.  

But, if it ever becomes not insane for me to spend $$$$ on a 2011, I think I'll be doing it. 

[Midwest3Gunner]

I started with a 5" bushing barreled Eagle, then swapped for a TSO because I thought the weight up front because of the full length dustcover would feel better. I ended up figuring out that I didn't like the weight for transitions as much, but I never tried getting the slide lightened. Otherwise, the egos of the CZ were super comfortable. I ended up switching back to a lightened 6" short dust cover 2011 last year and figured out that's what I really like, put an aluminum grip on it and it feels like the best of both worlds at this point.

 

Glad you found something you like!

[Dr_Z]

In factory form, the TS / TSO lacks the nice balance of a steel grip 2011, CZ is top and front heavy. That been said, you can easily fix it with some brass panel and slide lightening. I started Limited division with a TSO, no internal modifications other than springs. Ran a few matches and decided to switch to a 2011 (Atlas Titan), love the feel and workmanship of a well-made 2011. However, I can tell you there is no downsides of shooting a well modified TSO in limited compared to a fully customized 2011

[Superkaratemonkeyfighter]

Trigger is one of those downsides. 
I know the TSO has a light trigger but it comes with almost no feel to it. 

I felt a 2011 with a super light trigger and it had a well defined wall and reset was amazing. Plus
the serrations are almost non existent on a tso 
the magwell has to be blended. 
besides all of that it’s a sub 2000$ option. 
I sure a great shooter would have no problem making Gm with a TSO. 
The gun is capable. 
 

[MuayThaiJJ]

4 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Trigger is one of those downsides. 
I know the TSO has a light trigger but it comes with almost no feel to it. 

I felt a 2011 with a super light trigger and it had a well defined wall and reset was amazing. Plus
the serrations are almost non existent on a tso 
the magwell has to be blended. 
besides all of that it’s a sub 2000$ option. 
I sure a great shooter would have no problem making Gm with a TSO. 
The gun is capable. 
 

 

Agreed 100%

I have tried haaard, to get my TSO to feel closer to my 1911/2011s. Not happenin

 

Still, a nice trigger for the platform tho.

My Gold Team breaks a bit cleaner

[rowdyb]

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Having had multiple TSO's of different eras and 2011s from an STI Eagle to an Atlas Titan, I would choose the 2011 every time.

[motosapiens]

5 hours ago, Superkaratemonkeyfighter said:

Trigger is one of those downsides. 
I know the TSO has a light trigger but it comes with almost no feel to it. 

I felt a 2011 with a super light trigger and it had a well defined wall and reset was amazing. Plus

seems like a personal preference thing. I shoot better without a 'well defined wall', but I do fine with one too. One of my friends is a fairly elite sponsored shooter (as in free guns every year and travel expenses), and his 2011's have a pretty soft rolling break that I very much like. Quite a difference from the abrupt break that many people claim to prefer.