Can We Just Stop Already?

[iflyskyhigh]

Jut read another post of someone complaining about “opportunists” and “price gouges” amongst the bullet manufacturers.

 

Can we just stop already?

 

To the point, these types of baseless accusations are exhausting, and quite frankly are the language of the people which shall not be named but I’m sure most of you despise. None of us have any idea what their production costs are or what their profits are.

 

We should be better. We should have a better understanding of economics and the free market.

 

As everyone is aware the cost of raw materials, labor, and shipping have all gone through the roof. And it’s been going up for some time. Increasingly so as of late.

 

Most of the major manufacturers didn’t “jack” up their prices right away. They rose as I would assume the cost of production rose.

 

I’ve been keeping a list over the past couple years of the price per bullet for the 9/40/45 bullets I buy from all the major manufacturers of FMJ/JHP and coated lead. I try to update it ever few weeks. Some times I’m better about it than others. I also have all my old receipts from the past few years for big purchases to reference. 

 

I can empirically tell you the prices really haven’t risen that much to the end user. Relatively speaking.

 

Yes for a long time products were in short supply but the prices didn’t rise that much or that fast. You just couldn’t get them.

 

One major thing that has changed are the big sales have all but disappeared, especially during holidays. For those us that bought in bulk during those sales, that’s been the biggest difference I’ve seen. But again, the over all cost per bullets hasn’t risen that much. It’s all relative. Maybe a penny or two per bullet depending on bullet and manufacturer?

 

Another big difference is that when products did start to come back you couldn’t save by buying in bulk because that option wasn’t available. As of right now the only major manufacturer that has real bulk pricing is RMR and the price saving for bulk just isn’t there any more.

 

Coated lead has risen more over the past 8 months or so than it did when this all started. I’m totally speculating but I’m guessing that the material to make bullet jackets went up, at least initially, faster than lead. Lead cost and availability shortages are catching up apparently. 
 

I went away from JHPs/FMJs and back towards coated lead the past couple years because of availability and cost. But mostly availability. Again, not being able to save 10-15% at sale time, and the small price increase in JHPs/FMJs made coated lead where it would work a no brainer for me shooting 8000-10,000 rounds a year.

 

I’ve noticed that the coated lead prices have maybe risen a little faster over the past 8 months or so, as  compared to the previous 16 months. I’ve seen lead jump several dollars per thousand since last summer.
 

The gap between the cost of lead and jacketed has started to shrink backs towards where it was pre plan-demic. Lead is  still cheaper.
 

As of writing this all the go to brands are within about a half a penny of each other for similar style bullets. This is not a definitive study, and I’m sure you can find examples where this doesn’t apply. Just speaking to the big picture.

 

I made the mistake of not stocking up on projectiles when I saw this last crisis brewing. Powder and primers yes. Enough to last a lifetime. But every other panic prior I’ve always been able to get projectiles. So I didn’t invest at the time. Wish I had. And not because I feel like “they’re” gouging us now, but because I understand economics.

 

It’s safe to saying there is no end in sight to the current rise in costs due to a plethora of factors.
 

Also safe to say I’ve now stocked up on FMJs/JHPs again. I won’t make the same mistake twice.
 

Projectiles will never be as cheap again as they are right now while you’re reading this. Not a guarantee. But a safe hedge and bet. If you buy in bulk right now, use the discounts that are out there, and take advantage of the few sales here and there, you can get them for just a few bucks more than you could have a couple years ago. Pretty good all things considered.

 

AND most all still ship for free! With the increase in cost of shipping that’s a huge boon to the end user and big hit to the manufacturers I’m sure. The manufacturers for sure have absorbed a huge chunk of that for us. 

 

Sorry for typos and run-ons. I don’t care enough to go back and proof read. 
 

PS I don’t work in the bullet manufacturing business. I can already see that one coming. 

[kneelingatlas]

As a business owner I can tell you the supply chain issues are miserable! We have critical components on backorder for six months and the customer just has to wait. I've been hunting down trucks all around the country and paying 42% more than I did last year.

Edited March 23, 2022 by kneelingatlas

[Farmer]

Another thing to look at is the fuel price and it’s effects on products.  I know my equipment parts have gone nuts too. Six months ago a wheel bearing for my tractor was $800. Today the service manager told me that original Case part is $2000. Fortunately he found a NOS for $1000. So the couple of cents that bullets have risen is peanuts. The ones that fire me up are the outfits that raised in stock products to new prices. I don’t begrudge companies of making a fair profit but some take advantage of crisis, so I simply shop somewhere else. 

[RGA]

2 hours ago, Farmer said:

 The ones that fire me up are the outfits that raised in stock products to new prices.

 

This. ^

[MikeyScuba]

The product on the shelf has it's own cost for sure.  But don't forget the cost to run the business itself.  Transportation, heating,power, wages, insurance.  Where do you do think those are compared to just months ago?  Things are a MESS.  I have a customer in the electric motor biz and copper wire changes daily.

 

I have always in my business carried a lot of inventory, mainly to reduce cross border transportation and customs fees.  It's been a godsend and keeping me going.  I'm starting to overstock where I can.

[Boomstick303]

7 hours ago, Farmer said:

The ones that fire me up are the outfits that raised in stock products to new prices.

 

Just because an item is on the shelf or "In Stock" does not mean someone cannot charge market price.  It costs them the "new" price to replace that item on the shelf.  To keep their stock up to par (when they can).  That is how a capitalist system works.  Its the reality that we live in.  Everyone has bills to pay.  Every business owner has to figure out how to keep the lights on.  Increasing prices also hurts volume of product sold for that business.  Business owners have to figure out how to overcome lost revenue today and in the future.  It also not up to a business for them to figure out how to help you out when they are struggling as well.   

Edited March 23, 2022 by Boomstick303

[iflyskyhigh]

4 hours ago, RGA said:

 

This. ^

This is what I'm talking about.

 

There are a million reasons why someone could or would raise the price on something "in stock" and for us to pretend to know why or begrudge them from a purely analytical reason makes no sense to me. It's 100% an emotional response. I have learned any time I have an emotional response to something I try and check myself. Doesn't mean I'm wrong, but I really better double check my work.

 

I guess we could ask them why they raised the price, but short of that, we have no idea.

Edited March 23, 2022 by iflyskyhigh

[iflyskyhigh]

32 minutes ago, Boomstick303 said:

 

Just because an item is on the shelf or "In Stock" does not mean someone cannot charge market price.  It costs them the "new" price to replace that item on the shelf.  To keep their stock up to par (when they can).  That is how a capitalist system works.  Its the reality that we live in.  Everyone has bills to pay.  Every business owner has to figure out how to keep the lights on.  Increasing prices also hurts volume of product sold for that business.  Business owners have to figure out how to overcome lost revenue today and in the future.  It also not up to a business for them to figure out how to help you out when they are struggling as well.   

This

[motosapiens]

7 hours ago, Farmer said:

The ones that fire me up are the outfits that raised in stock products to new prices.

this is how the free market responds to increased demand. Your other choice is an artificially low price and widespread shortages, like in communist countries.

 

Personally I'd rather have a product be available at a higher price than be unavailable at a lower price. Not only does this ensure that people who *really* need that product can get it, but it also provides an incentive for others to find a way to provide that product, either by increasing manufacturing, or importing from somewhere with lower demand. We are finally starting to see both those things happen with ammo and primers.

[Racinready300ex]

I get raising in stock prices.

 

The company I work for buys lumber by the truck load. Getting a couple trucks a week isn't crazy. Sometimes it's a couple a day. I don't generally see the costs, not my department. But a few weeks ago we were paying over 40k for a truck of just number 2 (highest price ever). Plus steel is up, and fuel is up etc. So we raised our prices again. Do we have lumber in the yard we paid less for? Sure we do. Making up some numbers lets say we take a load of lumber we paid 30 for and we sell it for 40. That whole 40 is going to go to the mill and wont even cover the next load of lumber. There is nothing left to keep the lights on. 

 

That's a over simplification of the situation, but our prices have to be up over 100% from pre covid numbers. At the same time, pre covid we generally were only about 2 weeks out on production, and our prices where pretty competitive with everyone else. Now, we're 6-8 weeks out our prices are better than some competitors and we turn away work that we don't want to mess with. Hell, I have a months worth of design work sitting in a pile to do. We turn away new customers so we don't fall so far behind we wont be able to service our existing customers. 

 

Times are crazy. 

[iflyskyhigh]

I know we aren't supposed to discuss political stuff on here and I don't want it to turn into that, not that it has, just trying to prevent that.

 

Economics knows no political affiliation.

 

And I really wasn't trying to scold or pick on anyone.

 

As with most things in life I'm just trying to get people to think outside their normal scope and responses.

 

Just put the shoe on the other proverbial foot and think about things analytically before emotionally. (Which I am just as guilty of BTW. I am human)

[Racinready300ex]

Honestly I'm amazed that a lot of prices are as low as they are. Don't get me wrong I love low prices. But primers up 130-150% from pre covid makes more sense to me then bullets being up 20-30%

[MikeyScuba]

Sortof going slightly sideways, I have a shop where I could have easily set up some machines to do my own casting.  It wasn't easy to find out the actual cost of lead but based on spot prices the math was so bad I don't know how the coated bullet mfg's make any money.  My math was with my own free labour and no extra utilities.

[LordManHammer]

I've found that many people who have never owned/run a business don't understand the costs/expenses involved.  I know many of my clients believe when they pay me $100 I pocket that money as my own...as if I head straight to the bar or casino with  $100.  I have to explain I actually get a minute fraction of that money and the rest goes to fixed and variable costs of running my business.  When they ask "why does it cost so much", I tell them "because that's how much it costs! No one is getting rich doing what I do."

[iflyskyhigh]

5 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

Honestly I'm amazed that a lot of prices are as low as they are. Don't get me wrong I love low prices. But primers up 130-150% from pre covid makes more sense to me then bullets being up 20-30%

 

I, Pencil Essay

[twodownzero]

20 hours ago, RGA said:

 

This. ^

You both are exactly the ignorance this post was designed to answer.

 

PLEASE take a course in basic microeconomics. 

[RGA]

Hi,

 

I can appreciate what you are saying in the case of small businesses. But there are also plenty of large firms with large market shares that raise prices of on the shelf products during a shortage just because they can. To maximize profits when consumers seem to be willing to pay more. You see this in all branches of society.

 

 

[Boomstick303]

1 hour ago, RGA said:

But there are also plenty of large firms with large market shares that raise prices of on the shelf products during a shortage just because they can.

 

Define Plenty.  For the most part these corporations are not being discussed in this forum.  Just about anyone (individual or company) that can sell any item, will sell that item for as much as they can if there is someone willing to pay regardless of the economic system.   Is Sig, Springfield Armory, CZ or any other large company involved in shooting sports "sticking it" to the customer? With that said, "evil" corporations are allowed to price their products at any price they choose to, and you are able to choose to buy from these corporations or not.  This is how the free market works.

 

If you want to talk about pharmaceutical companies that is a completely different story.  Now, if you are talking about medications that people are required to buy to stay alive and that company inflates prices say something like EPI Pens, then yes you have a valid argument.  Companies for the most part have competition.  They have to price their products to keep pace with their competitors so they can compete in the free market place.  

 

In a free market place the market dictates if a company will stay alive or not (for the most part but there are rare exceptions).  The ethics in which a company does business can also hurt a business.  I choose to not to do business with many companies because of the ethics, politics, customer service, and a myriad of other reasons.  You are free to make those same decisions.

 

Primers seem to be the major issue for most of us on the board.  This is mostly driven by ammo supplies.  Companies that make primers also make ammo for the most part.  Their margin on ammo is way larger than it is for primers.  Therefore, they are going to make ammo versus selling just the primer and this has affected the supply and demand and has driven primer costs to where we see them today.  The other issues with primers is shipping is almost never covered when buying them online and there is the hazmat fee which typically increases the price of 1000 primers (which is the typical limit currently) 30-40%.  I do not see any companies over charging customers for primers and if they do you have the choice to buy from them or not.  I see individual people charging huge amounts of money for primers.  You can also choose to buy or not buy from these individuals.  

 

Something I see on this board is people conflate individuals selling items for high prices for companies who are really not selling items for greatly inflated prices.     

 

Its a free market for you to decide where you spend your dollars.  

 

 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Boomstick303

[Farmer]

@Boomstick303 You said it better than I did. Coming from a small town you took care of your customers because they were your livelihood. When products went up you simply explained and they understood. (well most of them) We didn’t have the luxury of hosing customers and not caring if they returned because there wasn’t another sucker around the corner.  Like I said if a business skyrockets prices “just because” I simply shop elsewhere. 
I have to give Jake at RMR kudos for sending out newsletters explaining that there will be a price increase because of increased material costs. He could have immediately  raised in stock prices but didn’t, and because of that I’ll support him as well as the others that did the same. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Farmer