Wheelgun Woes

[MuffintopMarksman]

Well, I’m at a loss.

 

I’ve installed a new, full-power hammer spring and an extended Apex firing pin in my R8 and am continuing to get light primer strikes with various factory ammo (I don’t reload for my 9mm revolver as I don’t really have the time or space and I’ve been able to find a couple factory loadings with a strong enough crimp to avoid bullet jump). 
 

It happens randomly, sometimes two in a row, sometimes one at the worst time (which is any time in these things). I’m curious if others have had similar issues or if anyone can think of a logical reason why (like the hammer prematurely slipping off the sear, if that’s possible). 
 

I will be consulting S&W…..again. It’s been a couple years since I last talked to them about it and they couldn’t replicate the problem. My first favorite hobby led to a kid so my second favorite has taken a break which is why I’m just now getting around to seeing the problem again. I’ve got enough video of me saying bad words to hopefully convince them now.

 

Anyways, any help would be appreciated. 

[gargoil66]

MtM:

 

Join the club even though it isn't a TRR-8.  

 

My TRR-8 is extremely dependable.  My 627 PC isn't.   

 

The easiest and most common problem is not using Fed 100 primers and not seating them fully and below the rim of the brass.

 

Well, I use Fed 100's and seat them fully and below the rim of the brass and guess what?  Even with about a fifty ounce hammer fall, I still get light primer strikes periodically but they aren't the only problem with that revolver.  Hard trigger pulls after shooting for a while are.  Like I had a high primer except I inspect each round when filling moon clips and inspect again when readying for a stage.  The primers are below the rim and are not backing out.  Something else is wrong and I suspect it is something out of spec inside the frame which is causing problems with the interface of the trigger and hammer.  The cylinder stop is not the issue.  The hammer was off center so I shimmed the hammer and also the trigger.  Still get a light strike once or twice per hundred rounds and for no reason I can determine, the trigger gets very difficult to pull after maybe fifty or sixty rounds fired.  Nothing predictable.  Can go ten or more shots and it happens for a few then fine again for a while.  The revolver is not dependable and never was.  Not even with the factory trigger and hammer.  There is no correlation between hard trigger pulls and reliable ignition.  It will still shoot even with a hard pull just as much as it will give a light strike during a hard pull.   Bought it used so no recourse.

 

So, the hammer has enough force to set off any primer made, the extended firing pin is not broken and nothing seems wrong with the timing.  Almost zero end shake, extractor shows no signs of wear and the ejection rod is straight and not loose.  Carbon is not building up between the forcing cone and the cylinder to make it sluggish like this and even if it did, it would not have a thing to do with the firing pin and the primer.  Headspace is perfect.  It is happening with different lots of Fed 100's including Fed 100 'Match'.  

 

Something was not made right with that revolver and I will probably have to send it off to get it fixed.  Not what I want to do.

 

GG

 

 

[Mcfoto]

I’m afraid this is the sorry state of QC at Smith and Wesson, particularly when it comes to 8 shot competition revolvers. My issue out of the box was moons wouldn’t seat, even the TK ones supplied with the gun. I went through three different gunsmiths and two sets of springs to get decent action. The only way for me to get reliable ignition is to hand prime-even with an extended firing pin. Revolver shooting dragged me into reloading. Eventually, I found what works for me. Rather than send your R8 back to S/W where it will no doubt linger for months, I suggest you find a gunsmith who knows these guns. TK is the master but there are others if you dig. As my friend Mike (Revo GM) says, “Smith and Wesson sells gun kits with all the parts pre-assembled.” They are in no way “add ammo and blast” guns.

[testosterone]

42 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

“Smith and Wesson sells gun kits with all the parts pre-assembled.” 

This has been a common refrain ref s&w revolvers for at least 15 years.   You have to spend 1k to get the gun then another $700+ 3 months on the gunsmith to make it actually work.

[Mcfoto]

1 minute ago, testosterone said:

This has been a common refrain ref s&w revolvers for at least 15 years.   You have to spend 1k to get the gun then another $700+ 3 months on the gunsmith to make it actually work.

The last time I looked up a new 929, retail is closer to $1500. None in stock anyway. But yeah…

[gargoil66]

1 hour ago, Mcfoto said:

I’m afraid this is the sorry state of QC at Smith and Wesson, particularly when it comes to 8 shot competition revolvers. My issue out of the box was moons wouldn’t seat, even the TK ones supplied with the gun. I went through three different gunsmiths and two sets of springs to get decent action. The only way for me to get reliable ignition is to hand prime-even with an extended firing pin. Revolver shooting dragged me into reloading. Eventually, I found what works for me. Rather than send your R8 back to S/W where it will no doubt linger for months, I suggest you find a gunsmith who knows these guns. TK is the master but there are others if you dig. As my friend Mike (Revo GM) says, “Smith and Wesson sells gun kits with all the parts pre-assembled.” They are in no way “add ammo and blast” guns.

McF:

 

I did have a problem with my TRR-8 out of the box.  Each consecutive pull of the trigger was progressively harder until I got back to the first of eight pulls.  It was so bad that I could not believe it wasn't noticed when it left Smith and Wesson.  All a guy had to do was pull the trigger eight times quickly and it would be impossible not to notice.  I wrote Smith and Wesson and they sent me a return label and I returned it.  Got it back in two weeks and it was fixed.  Customer service was great in my opinion but quality control did not exist or it never would have left their door.

 

Getting ready to ship the 627 PC to TK because nothing that I do seems to be working.  I don't throw money at a problem unless I know what the problem is and in this case I lack the tools to measure things like the alignment of the trigger and hammer pins or their distance and locations in the frame so can not troubleshoot the problem, let alone have the skills to fix it. 

 

GG

[MWP]

8 hours ago, MuffintopMarksman said:

Well, I’m at a loss.

 

I’ve installed a new, full-power hammer spring and an extended Apex firing pin in my R8 and am continuing to get light primer strikes with various factory ammo (I don’t reload for my 9mm revolver as I don’t really have the time or space and I’ve been able to find a couple factory loadings with a strong enough crimp to avoid bullet jump). 
 

It happens randomly, sometimes two in a row, sometimes one at the worst time (which is any time in these things). I’m curious if others have had similar issues or if anyone can think of a logical reason why (like the hammer prematurely slipping off the sear, if that’s possible). 
 

I will be consulting S&W…..again. It’s been a couple years since I last talked to them about it and they couldn’t replicate the problem. My first favorite hobby led to a kid so my second favorite has taken a break which is why I’m just now getting around to seeing the problem again. I’ve got enough video of me saying bad words to hopefully convince them now.

 

Anyways, any help would be appreciated. 

Short version- you need to turn the gun up. 

Long version is mostly primers and improper primer seating. 
 

Do yourself a favor and send the gun to a known revolver gunsmith rather than the factory. But I’d put a paycheck on your gun is fine like it is. 

[Fishbreath]

Getting my 750 to reliably seat primers as deep as I can get them on my turret press has been an ongoing and not entirely successful endeavor—a gun that happily took a 10lb hammer spring with turret press ammo needs a 12lb hammer spring with 750 ammo, to catch the occasional primer not fully seated. I'm hoping that maybe the Federal SPPs I cracked open the other day will be a little easier to light than the SPMs I bought mid-pandemic, but time will tell.

 

(Orthogonal to Muffintop's problems with factory ammo, but it's an ongoing concern for me.)

[MikeyScuba]

I never found a difference between Fed regular vs magnum primers.

[AzShooter]

Randy Lee from Apex Tactical had a technique that works real well.  When seating your primers rotate the case and seat them again.  This gets them lower than normal and really helps in setting off the primers.

 

It takes a little longer but eliminates the problem.

[ysrracer]

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

Getting my 750 to reliably seat primers as deep as I can get them on my turret press has been an ongoing and not entirely successful endeavor—

 

How is that possible? The primer punch on a 750 is smaller in diameter than both the primer and the primer pocket.

 

It allows you to seat the primer was deep as you want. I'd you're not bottoming out the primer, it's either operator error or operator error setting up your machine.

[ysrracer]

Also, factory 9mm ammo isn't designed to work in a revolver, and most of it doesn't.

 

If you're having gun problems and you're working on your own gun and you're not a fully qualified gunsmith, that might be the problem.

[MuffintopMarksman]

8 hours ago, Mcfoto said:

I’m afraid this is the sorry state of QC at Smith and Wesson, particularly when it comes to 8 shot competition revolvers. My issue out of the box was moons wouldn’t seat, even the TK ones supplied with the gun. I went through three different gunsmiths and two sets of springs to get decent action. The only way for me to get reliable ignition is to hand prime-even with an extended firing pin. Revolver shooting dragged me into reloading. Eventually, I found what works for me. Rather than send your R8 back to S/W where it will no doubt linger for months, I suggest you find a gunsmith who knows these guns. TK is the master but there are others if you dig. As my friend Mike (Revo GM) says, “Smith and Wesson sells gun kits with all the parts pre-assembled.” They are in no way “add ammo and blast” guns.

Certainly an applicable quote. I’ve had to send back multiple new revolvers the second we receive them due to obvious QC issues. TK is who cut mine for 9mm; I’ll likely heed the advice of most of the comments and see if they can get the thing to work.

 

Thanks!

[MuffintopMarksman]

1 hour ago, ysrracer said:

Also, factory 9mm ammo isn't designed to work in a revolver, and most of it doesn't.

 

If you're having gun problems and you're working on your own gun and you're not a fully qualified gunsmith, that might be the problem.

A logical point as I am certainly no gunsmith but the replacement of the firing pin was well within my limited technical ability. Sadly the issues have been unaffected by the addition of the extended pin or the spring.

 

Which brings up what I assume is the crux of my problem: appropriate primer depth. I’ll have to do some more research here and see if I can justify the cost of a reloading setup.

 

Appreciate the input.

 

[MuffintopMarksman]

4 hours ago, MWP said:

Short version- you need to turn the gun up. 

Long version is mostly primers and improper primer seating. 
 

Do yourself a favor and send the gun to a known revolver gunsmith rather than the factory. But I’d put a paycheck on your gun is fine like it is. 

From all the input, it looks like I’ll need to take another look at a reloading setup.

 

Thanks!

[Fishbreath]

2 hours ago, ysrracer said:

How is that possible? The primer punch on a 750 is smaller in diameter than both the primer and the primer pocket.

Depending on primer pocket and press tolerances, the punch may not protrude far enough from the ram to seat deeper than Dillon's spec, which is 2-6 thou.

[ysrracer]

1 hour ago, Fishbreath said:

Depending on primer pocket and press tolerances, the punch may not protrude far enough from the ram to seat deeper than Dillon's spec, which is 2-6 thou.

 

Isn't the punch in a spring ?

[tomjerry1]

What brass are you using? I use Winchester, but found that if I didn't ream the primer pockets(new or used), I would not be able to get the primers to seat correctly. It's an extra step to the reload process that I don't do for any other pistols, but has made life so much more enjoyable while shooting my 929. Good thing is, you wont have to do that process until the cases fail.

[MuffintopMarksman]

26 minutes ago, tomjerry1 said:

What brass are you using? I use Winchester, but found that if I didn't ream the primer pockets(new or used), I would not be able to get the primers to seat correctly. It's an extra step to the reload process that I don't do for any other pistols, but has made life so much more enjoyable while shooting my 929. Good thing is, you wont have to do that process until the cases fail.

From what I’ve gathered from the other comments, my main problem is not reloading (specifically to get more appropriate primer depths). I’ll definitely keep your info on the Winchester brass in mind when I finally work up enough cash to get a decent reloading setup. 
 

Thanks!

[Alleycatdad]

For a variety of reasons not important to this discussion, all I've shot in my 929 is factory ammo.  There is ZERO doubt that for competition, including lightening the action and accuracy reasons, it's best to handload, but if you can't, here's some observations:

 

1) All factory ammo  is NOT the same, even batch to batch.  I have several thousand rounds of pre-pandemic remington left in the safe and it shoots great in the 929, as does the newer but much more expensive post-pandemic ammunition of the same part number, but there is a significant difference in measured velocity between new and old batches.

  - bullet retention has varied for me also batch to batch in several brands..  I've had winchester white box pull bullets after 4 shots in the past but the batch I'm working through now is fine.

  -Do NOT go out and buy a bunch of federal factory to try to get the same effect as handloading federal primers; not only are the factory federal demonstrably harder than even S&B, Federals will have the bullet lying in the cylinder surrounded by powder after five shots, at least in my gun.  This is exciting when it ignites.

 

2) As noted above, testing with available factory rounds is critical.  I'm lucky that I have a shop that will hold an allotment for me while I go test a box of whatever it is, but this can be a killer these days.  By FAR, the softest and easiest to fire factory rounds for me are Remington.  CCI blazer brass, Winchester white box, federal (both jacketed and syntech) will all go off with the strain screw turned in another half to 3/4 of a turn.  Fiocchi won't ignite reliably in my gun no matter what I do.  YMMV, but I wish someone had shared this with me two years ago...

 

3) If you're shooting USPSA, know that Remington and CCI are currently chronoing about 155-160 fps below advertised velocities out of my 929, which makes them subminor.  I chronoed 125.5 with the Remington at a local this month, and subsequent testing tells me I clearly got very lucky with that.  Winchester white box and all tested federal rounds tested somewhat higher than advertised.

 

4) syntech is readily available here and is tempting given that it makes power factor and I've seen no bullet jump with it, however, it sucks for revolver reloads with the flat point bullet and seemingly slightly "sticky" coating.  Again, federal jacketed is unusable for me due to bullet jump.

 

Make SURE your gunsmith knows you're shooting factory rounds.  My current trigger pull is right at 7 lbs for all factory ammo except for the fiocchi, but it took a ton of detail work and testing to get it there.  I do all my own work so my gunsmith is an idiot....  If you're patient and careful and wiliing to replace a part or two when you take too much off, and you're willing to do the research, most revolver work is doable, but it really is best to send it out if you have doubts about any of the foregoing.  

 

If you burn gravy or get lumps of pasta because you just can't stand to stand there and stir it, send your gun out.  Just sayin.

 

Again, the BEST advice is build a good load with crushed federal primers, and (while...) tuning the gun to shoot it.  It's a rabbit hole for sure to do right but is certainly worth it.

 

FWIW

 

Steve

Edited March 22, 2022 by Alleycatdad

[tomjerry1]

Good luck, I've been shooting open and limited for years with no issues on primer depth, but these revolvers are a different breed.

[MWP]

15 hours ago, MuffintopMarksman said:

From all the input, it looks like I’ll need to take another look at a reloading setup.

 

Thanks!

You can try reseating the primers in factory ammo if you’re not interested in reloading. I like the Hornady hand seater with the tray cut off. I think you can make factory ammo work if needed. 

[pskys2]

16 hours ago, MuffintopMarksman said:

A logical point as I am certainly no gunsmith but the replacement of the firing pin was well within my limited technical ability. Sadly the issues have been unaffected by the addition of the extended pin or the spring.

 

Which brings up what I assume is the crux of my problem: appropriate primer depth. I’ll have to do some more research here and see if I can justify the cost of a reloading setup.

 

Appreciate the input.

 

Using factory 9mm ammo?  I had some MagTech ammo that just wouldn't work in my tuned Glocks, had to use a factory striker.  Had some Hornady 45 acp ammo that wouldn't work in my 325 with 64 oz hammer fall.  

 

If you must use factory ammo: don't use steel or aluminmum cases and stick with Federal, WW, RP ammo and you may have to live with no less than 56 ounce hammer fall.  You may be able to drop that only if you're able to find Federal ammo, and even then I'm not sure it's as reliable as Fed primer reloaded ammo.  Might try some of the SynTech ammo, it's mostly fp but the PCC https://www.federalpremium.com/handgun/syntech/syntech-pcc/11-AE9SJPC1.html version is RN.  It's used by a lot of USPSA competitors who always have light actions, but the PCC stuff is supposed to be optimized for longer barrels, could be dirty in a Revolver?  Check the actual PF from your Revovler before going to a big match though.

 

The other issue is installing a new mainspring does not mean it's full power,  I've had aftermarket  springs that were light, some heavy, there's no guarantee and it will be affected by the strain screw.

Measure the actual hammer fall so you know where you're starting from.  I've had best luck with factory ammo around 56 oz.

 

There's a reason those who shoot highly tuned, light action handguns reload their own ammo.  And it's not always the cost, but that helps.

 

Actually try putting the factory mainspring in and tighten the strain screw down all of the way.  If it works with no light strikes keep backing out the strain screw until you get light strikes.  Then tighten back down until you don't.  Then count the turns from that point it takes to fully tighten it back down.  Remove the strain screw and put some blue 242 loc-tite and back out the strain screw to the previous reliable point.  Then if you have a light strike, tighten the strain screw in about a 1/4 turn, no need to re-apply the loc-tite.

Hopefully it will leave you some extra if you need to up the hammer fall.

 

Since you're using only factory ammo, and probably not always the same ammo, it pays to have some ability to increase the hammer fall.

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by pskys2

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, tomjerry1 said:

Good luck, I've been shooting open and limited for years with no issues on primer depth, but these revolvers are a different breed.

With 1911 & 2011's you usually don't.  With the striker fired guns & Revolvers, you will.  Everything gets touchier with the lighter the action.  On the xx11's the hammer fall can be set very heavy and the action still be light, add in the titanium FP's and the only issue becomes primer flow, not ignition.  WIth Revolvers and Striker fired guns the hammer fall is affects the action weight, so to lighten the action the ignition source must be lightened.  It's a balancing act that the hammer fired semi-suto's don't have to stress over.

 

[ysrracer]

4 hours ago, Alleycatdad said:

Federals will have the bullet lying in the cylinder surrounded by powder after five shots, at least in my gun.  This is exciting when it ignites.

 

Yes, I've had the EXACT same experience with factory Federal ammo.

 

However my hand load now is Federal Small Pistol Primers, Federal brass, Blue Bullets sized at .358 with TC moon clips.