My Hands Are Stupid

[NETim]

I've been coached in training classes to attempt to maintain a crush grip with my support hand and only a moderate "loose" grip with the strong hand.   Loose grip keeps the trigger finger from tensing up and improves trigger control, splits, etc.   Firm support hand helps the gun track better. 

 

I buy all that.   I think it's true.

 

However, my hands don't listen.   If I crush with my support side, the strong hand wants to crush as well.   Unless I REALLY, REALLY consciously work to achieve the proper tension, both hands crush.   I can usually manage it while dryfiring but I know at match speeds, all that goes out the window. 

 

Can the desired grip tension be achieved through practice?  Thus far, I've had no no real, consistent results.   It's difficult to separate the two hands' functions for me.   

[B585]

Yes, when I finally decided I had to fix that same thing, every time I grabbed the gun I thought about it.  Using too much strong hand was the only way I had ever shot so it took months before it would happen at a match consistently… but it did eventually become subconscious with enough time and effort.   

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, NETim said:

Can the desired grip tension be achieved through practice? 

 

Yes it can, and without firing a single shot

[Hvansky]

When you ease back on the strong hand, how do you still maintain wrist lock?

[Racinready300ex]

35 minutes ago, Hvansky said:

When you ease back on the strong hand, how do you still maintain wrist lock?

 

You have to learn to isolate the muscles in your forearm that lock your wrist. 

[NETim]

53 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

You have to learn to isolate the muscles in your forearm that lock your wrist. 

I've been working on that, but I'm getting frustrated because it doesn't seem to be happening during my version of high speed match conditions.   I just gotta work harder I guess (which always seems to be the answer to most issues.)

[Racinready300ex]

8 minutes ago, NETim said:

I've been working on that, but I'm getting frustrated because it doesn't seem to be happening during my version of high speed match conditions.   I just gotta work harder I guess (which always seems to be the answer to most issues.)

 

Not necessarily harder with out knowing what you're already doing. But just really focus on that thing, make sure you don't start just going through the motions. Something like trigger control at speed is probably a good dryfire drill. Next time you go to the range you could do it live fire and go back and forth live to dry. Once you can get something that works and know what it feels like it's just a matter of reps with a focus on getting that feeling. Doing doubles or Bill drills in live fire will tell you if you're doing it right.

 

But you'll likely always need to fight with this a little. I still over tense my hand and push shots low from time to time, not as low or as often as I used to but it happens. If it puts it in perspective I made GM a couple years ago. 

[BoyGlock]

6 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Not necessarily harder with out knowing what you're already doing. But just really focus on that thing, make sure you don't start just going through the motions. Something like trigger control at speed is probably a good dryfire drill. Next time you go to the range you could do it live fire and go back and forth live to dry. Once you can get something that works and know what it feels like it's just a matter of reps with a focus on getting that feeling. Doing doubles or Bill drills in live fire will tell you if you're doing it right.

 

But you'll likely always need to fight with this a little. I still over tense my hand and push shots low from time to time, not as low or as often as I used to but it happens. If it puts it in perspective I made GM a couple years ago. 

Great post Thank you for sharing

[rhino3]

On 10/10/2021 at 11:13 PM, NETim said:

I've been coached in training classes to attempt to maintain a crush grip with my support hand and only a moderate "loose" grip with the strong hand.   Loose grip keeps the trigger finger from tensing up and improves trigger control, splits, etc.   Firm support hand helps the gun track better. 

 

I buy all that.   I think it's true.

 

However, my hands don't listen.   If I crush with my support side, the strong hand wants to crush as well.   Unless I REALLY, REALLY consciously work to achieve the proper tension, both hands crush.   I can usually manage it while dryfiring but I know at match speeds, all that goes out the window. 

 

Can the desired grip tension be achieved through practice?  Thus far, I've had no no real, consistent results.   It's difficult to separate the two hands' functions for me.   

Sure, it can be acheived through practice

[loubob]

when you are practicing this make sure all tention in your body is gone face shoulders legs ect. focus on your hands.

[BillGarlandJr]

I grip the crap out of the gun….with both hands. Why? Because my hands are stupid too. I can’t grip more with one than the other so I just grip hard with both. Am I gripping to the point of trembling? No. Shy of that. But I am definitely gripping hard with both hands. 

[loubob]

Support hand only training can help, this way all your focus is on this hand. Live fire shooting support hand will teach you how much support is really needed to control the gun.

[X5SigChris]

On 12/16/2021 at 9:17 PM, BillGarlandJr said:

I grip the crap out of the gun….with both hands. Why? Because my hands are stupid too. I can’t grip more with one than the other so I just grip hard with both. Am I gripping to the point of trembling? No. Shy of that. But I am definitely gripping hard with both hands. 

I have the same issues. I may have to work in the support hand only shooting as mentioned above. I’m at a point where after 45-60 minutes of dry fire, I’m noticeably tired in the grip department. 

[Halen]

On 12/29/2021 at 3:54 PM, loubob said:

Support hand only training can help, this way all your focus is on this hand. Live fire shooting support hand will teach you how much support is really needed to control the gun.

 

Solid advice and something I need to work on. 

[loubob]

when training on grip technique be sure to back that up with a good preventive strengthening program to prevent tennis elbow.

[Halen]

5 hours ago, loubob said:

when training on grip technique be sure to back that up with a good preventive strengthening program to prevent tennis elbow.

 

I saw mention of the Captains of Crush Grippers in another thread and ordered a set. I'm in the process of getting a fractured wrist back together and this is part of the process.

[BillGarlandJr]

These are good to use in conjunction with the Grippers. Balances things out and helps maintain forearm health.

 

[BillGarlandJr]

On 12/31/2021 at 9:36 AM, X5SigChris said:

I have the same issues. I may have to work in the support hand only shooting as mentioned above. I’m at a point where after 45-60 minutes of dry fire, I’m noticeably tired in the grip department. 

45-60 minutes of dry fire is a good chunk! If you're gripping the pistol hard, as you should, you should feel a bit of fatigue in your hands and forearms. 

 

To clarify what I was talking about before as far as gripping hard with both hands, I've been able to do that to good effect. What I meant by saying my hands are stupid too is that when I'm shooting I can't tell at what percentage I'm gripping the pistol with either hand. I just grip it hard with both hands. I'm still able to work the trigger well, and the front sight tracks consistently, which is what I'm concerned about. 

[Halen]

2 hours ago, BillGarlandJr said:

These are good to use in conjunction with the Grippers. Balances things out and helps maintain forearm health.

 

 

Those look intriguing, what is the name of the product?

[BillGarlandJr]

30 minutes ago, Halen said:

 

Those look intriguing, what is the name of the product?

Hand Extensor Bands - I got the from Rogue Fitness

[Halen]

4 hours ago, BillGarlandJr said:

Hand Extensor Bands - I got the from Rogue Fitness

 

Thank you, ordering a hand extensor today.

[X5SigChris]

17 hours ago, BillGarlandJr said:

45-60 minutes of dry fire is a good chunk! If you're gripping the pistol hard, as you should, you should feel a bit of fatigue in your hands and forearms. 

 

To clarify what I was talking about before as far as gripping hard with both hands, I've been able to do that to good effect. What I meant by saying my hands are stupid too is that when I'm shooting I can't tell at what percentage I'm gripping the pistol with either hand. I just grip it hard with both hands. I'm still able to work the trigger well, and the front sight tracks consistently, which is what I'm concerned about. 

I think I had most of what you meant. I defiantly understand what you mean by not understanding the percentage. I’m “new” at dry fire. This is the first time I’ve ever actually trained with a goal in mind vs just conduct movements. Having a timer actually helps come to find out.  I’ve been finding myself struggling with my support hand a lot as I’m trying to untrain my hand to go with my index on the trigger guard and go back under it. Finding inconsistencies or I hit my mark but super soft and overshoot my par time. I’m starting to cut back to simple 15-20 minute sessions. After watching some videos of myself, I found anything after 30 minutes, I was just going through motions and was just beating up equipment. 

[MikeBurgess]

On 1/6/2022 at 10:16 PM, BillGarlandJr said:

45-60 minutes of dry fire is a good chunk! If you're gripping the pistol hard, as you should, you should feel a bit of fatigue in your hands and forearms. 

 

To clarify what I was talking about before as far as gripping hard with both hands, I've been able to do that to good effect. What I meant by saying my hands are stupid too is that when I'm shooting I can't tell at what percentage I'm gripping the pistol with either hand. I just grip it hard with both hands. I'm still able to work the trigger well, and the front sight tracks consistently, which is what I'm concerned about. 

to ad some weight to his words, his production gun flips less than most peoples open guns, I'm not kidding its kinda ridiculous to watch, it goes bang and the slide moves back and forth but that's about it. 

[BillGarlandJr]

23 hours ago, MikeBurgess said:

to ad some weight to his words, his production gun flips less than most peoples open guns, I'm not kidding its kinda ridiculous to watch, it goes bang and the slide moves back and forth but that's about it. 

Aww shucks. Thanks, Mike. 

[MuffintopMarksman]

I’m in the “strangle it to get it to shoot” camp. Obviously, not to the point that it affects accuracy or invites unnecessary fatigue. I describe it at your best job interview/good-ol-boy handshake plus some - evenly sandwiching the gun from both sides. 
 

I’ve heard the argument for a looser shooting hand for faster trigger finger manipulation but can’t get over that our bodies are naturally going to tense at some point in shooting (excitement, recoil anticipation, etc). I take the approach of using what my body will naturally do, which is grip something trying to jump out of my hands with a pretty good amount of force from both sides. This, coupled with weight forward in my feet and “bending the horseshoe” as (I think) Bob Vogel teaches has served me well for years. I can isolate my trigger finger just fine and not give the gun a path of least resistance to one side (which is what the grip you describe felt like to me when I tried it a while back).

(Also, the grip style you’re trying reminds me a little too much of “ya need 60% in this hand and 35% in that other one and clench your strong side butt cheek for that last 5%. There’s a reason overly technical approaches like the Weaver stance have died off.)