How good could you be if you had the time and resources to really, really practice?

[mniels]

I find it interesting to talk to people about this in relation to their skill level/class.  Obviously, the guys like Kunkel, Barrett, etc., are able to spend a lot of time with live fire practice on stages, working on particular transitions, etc.  I don't believe that there is any way to get that fast.

 

I started shooting RFRO about three months ago (really six months, but I had so many malfunctions with what I was shooting that I could not finish a string without an issue.)  I have never had the opportunity to live fire practice a stage; the only time I have ever been able to shoot a stage is at a match.  I simply do not have access to land where I can set anything up.  I am sure that this is the case for the majority of people.  The combination of available time, space, and ammo just isn't there for the average Joe.

 

I do, however, dry fire my ass off (first using the GFDS stickers, then the Steel Shoot Dryfire Banners.)  Recently I became curious about the timing of my progress, so I went back into Practiscore and counted how many matches and stages I have shot since the end of May, when I finally had a reliable rifle.

 

Starting with the Area 8 match outside of Richmond at the end of May, I have shot ten matches.  Some were eight stages matches, some six, and some four.  I went back and added up how many stages I shot in that time period and got 60.  So 60 stages in a hair under three months.

 

So here is the thing.  In that three month span, I went from a low B to M with a couple of seconds to go to get to GM.  I am 46 years old with a VERY bad knee (eight surgeries including a partial replacement, full replacement, and revision.)  I am nowhere near what I would call an athlete, and have not been for quite some time.  I have been shooting in general for a long time, dabbling in USPSA for a bit until I realized that I could not be even remotely competitive because I quite literally could not shoot from a knee.  In fact, I began shooting SC because I wanted to compete, and there is almost no movement on the clock.  However, I can't help thinking about how fast I could shoot if I had the time to really practice.  I would never be "top tier," if for no other reason than my younger years are behind me, but I believe I could be pretty damn competitive, at least at the regional level.

 

I am sure that my story is not unique.  There have to be a lot of folks out there with at least some kind of a natural affinity for shooting fast, who just can't be as good as they are capable of due to lack of time, practice space, etc.

 

Now, since I know someone is going to bring this up, I do realize that the different classes allow us to compete against those of a similar skill level.  That is the whole reason they are there, so us average shooters have someone to compete against.  But I am talking about those of us who dream about being able to shoot those sub 60 times and wondering what could have been...

 

So the question all of this is leading up to is, how good do you think you would be if you had access to those resources outside the reach of a "typical" shooter?  I believe that there would be a LOT more competition at the top of the leaderboards.

 

What do you guys think?

 

(On a side note, I compete because I enjoy it.  Through Steel Challenge I have made a couple of great friends, one of whom could be my brother, and we all shoot the same matches and and squad together.  I am definitely competitive, but I am out there because I am having a blast.  Thankfully, I am not one of those people who cannot have a good time unless they always finish first.  I decided to add this little post script because after reading my post, I do sound like the only thing I care about it how fast I can shoot and whether or not I win.  Don't get me wrong, I like both of those things, but that isn't the reason I try to get out and shoot three or four matches every month.  I am however, genuinely curious how many great shooters there could be out there given all of the things I have discussed.) 

[Darqusoull13]

Literally nothing is out of reach for the typical shooter except the drive to do it. Make it happen or don't. 

[apoc4lypse]

I have my own practice set, and practice 2-3 times a week, usually shooting three or four guns across four stages.  If I cherry pick my best stage times in practice for RFRO I get 60.50ish for all eight stages.  So I would like to think given the same time and ammo commitment of the top level shooters, I could reach the sub-60 level (in practice at least).  Who knows about at a real match.

 

Right now I am aiming to achieve as many GMs as I can, as opposed to breaking into the top 20 list on an already overcrowded division like RFRO.

[Racinready300ex]

I imagine for most people the difference would be a lot less than they think it will be.

 

The reality is most of us have the time and resources to make it farther than we think but we have to do the work. Most wont put in the effort and I doubt having more time and money would really change that. 

 

[Cuz]

3 hours ago, Racinready300ex said:

I imagine for most people the difference would be a lot less than they think it will be.

 

The reality is most of us have the time and resources to make it farther than we think but we have to do the work. Most wont put in the effort and I doubt having more time and money would really change that. 

 

Yeah, like you and darqusoull13 already said, it’s not the time or money that’s missing, but the drive to be better. 

[IHAVEGAS]

6 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

Literally nothing is out of reach for the typical shooter except the drive to do it. Make it happen or don't. 

 

A person with typical vision and typical reflexes and coordination for their age group is going to run into typical limitations for their age group. A person with exceptional natural athletic ability and young enough not to have lost a step will have much longer reach. 

 

In my opinion. 

[StefVanHauwe]

Very individual based on the context per shooter. I think everything depends on your passion for the sport, quantity, but more importantly, qualiity of your dry and live fire training and participation in matches to grow and learn at your own pace considering your predetermined objectives, understanding that you'll never stop learning  

[Racinready300ex]

26 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

A person with typical vision and typical reflexes and coordination for their age group is going to run into typical limitations for their age group. A person with exceptional natural athletic ability and young enough not to have lost a step will have much longer reach. 

 

In my opinion. 

 

IMO this sport really isn't all that athletic, mind set is more important overall. Obviously being young and fast doesn't hurt, but that's not the key. 

[mniels]

1 hour ago, Cuz said:

Yeah, like you and darqusoull13 already said, it’s not the time or money that’s missing, but the drive to be better. 

To be clear, I am not referring to drive or desire.  I dry fire nightly and pay close attention to how I practice as well.  I shoot at least once a week at my indoor range so at least I can work on first shot times (which are incredibly good due to that practice.)

 

The simple fact is that if you cannot live fire practice Steel Challenge, you are going to hit a ceiling.  It is not a hard stop ceiling, you can still improve, but it will take much, much longer.  And you will never be as good as you could be.

 

I live in a semi-rural area, and I have spent the last three months driving around like a vacuum salesman in the 50's, knocking on the doors of local farmers trying to find a place to practice.  I have posted online, talked to other shooters in the area, anything I can think of to find somewhere.  I have even put up a flyer at the local feed store.  I have just been striking out.  I have not given up, hopefully I will find something, but it definitely is not for a lack of trying.

 

Also, this isn't about money, I am referring to availability of practice space when I refer to resources.  I probably didn't make that clear.  However, if anyone would like to start a GoFundMe so I can buy some land, I won't complain!

 

The point being, please don't tell me it is a lack of drive.  

[Cuz]

2 hours ago, mniels said:

 

The point being, please don't tell me it is a lack of drive.  

I guess I was referring to my lack of drive, when I considered your question. I would like to be a better shooter, and I know I could be, but I’m not really willing to put in the work. 
 

I didn’t mean to slight you in any way. 

[EarlKeese]

My club sets up stages the week before our monthly match. It's not as good as a back yard practice range, but it's better than nothing. I'm currently stuck in A class in the divisions I shoot because I don't dedicate enough time to dry fire. My lack of progress is all on me, not due to the fact that I don't have a private practice range.

[mniels]

35 minutes ago, Cuz said:

I guess I was referring to my lack of drive, when I considered your question. I would like to be a better shooter, and I know I could be, but I’m not really willing to put in the work. 
 

I didn’t mean to slight you in any way. 

I’m just giving you a hard time, sorry. No hurt feelings, I promise!  

[mniels]

36 minutes ago, EarlKeese said:

My club sets up stages the week before our monthly match. It's not as good as a back yard practice range, but it's better than nothing. I'm currently stuck in A class in the divisions I shoot because I don't dedicate enough time to dry fire. My lack of progress is all on me, not due to the fact that I don't have a private practice range.

The one thing that I have discovered is that dry fire is HUGE. I love the banners. They are expensive, but the fact that they are more realistic works better for me than dryfiring at stickers on a wall.  Dry fire played a huge part in my bump in classes. Just helping get your rhythm down is a big plus. 

[Cuz]

2 minutes ago, mniels said:

The one thing that I have discovered is that dry fire is HUGE. I love the banners. They are expensive, but the fact that they are more realistic works better for me than dryfiring at stickers on a wall.  Dry fire played a huge part in my bump in classes. Just helping get your rhythm down is a big plus. 

Every Fall I tell myself I’m going to dry fire like crazy all winter and come out in the spring a real badass. Then my lack of ambition kicks in.
 

Two years ago I learned that buying the books and targets, etc. doesn’t do anything to improve your shooting unless you actually use them. 

 

Last year I decided it was a problem with my mag pouches, so I upgraded them all. That didn’t improve my shooting at all, so now I’m convinced it’s my gun. I’ll replace it over the winter and I’m quite sure that will get me from B to GM in no time. 

[EarlKeese]

1 hour ago, mniels said:

The one thing that I have discovered is that dry fire is HUGE. I love the banners. They are expensive, but the fact that they are more realistic works better for me than dryfiring at stickers on a wall.  Dry fire played a huge part in my bump in classes. Just helping get your rhythm down is a big plus. 

I go through periods of regular dryfire practice, but then I fall off the wagon. I have the banners but lost a garage/shop space in a move and haven't built a new space yet(covid lumber prices). 

[mniels]

54 minutes ago, Cuz said:

Every Fall I tell myself I’m going to dry fire like crazy all winter and come out in the spring a real badass. Then my lack of ambition kicks in.
 

Two years ago I learned that buying the books and targets, etc. doesn’t do anything to improve your shooting unless you actually use them. 

 

Last year I decided it was a problem with my mag pouches, so I upgraded them all. That didn’t improve my shooting at all, so now I’m convinced it’s my gun. I’ll replace it over the winter and I’m quite sure that will get me from B to GM in no time. 

Well, yeah, its always the gun!

 

I actually only dry fire for 10 minutes a day, right after dinner.  I pick a stage that I think I need to work on, hit that one for a couple of days, then move on to another one.  I think that you can overdo it with dryfire, it isn't exactly exciting, so it is easy to get bored and lose concentration.

[apoc4lypse]

For dry fire practice, I have all eight stages set up on the walls of my apartment.  I didn't want to spend money on banners so I calculated the scaled down sizes of the targets for 10ft away, cut them out of poster paper, and arranged them at the appropriate distances, given my height/sight line and the relative heights of the targets as they would appear.

 

I run through all eight stages at least once a day with one gun, shooting them as if I would a match and using my AMG Commander to record the dry fire time of the last shot.  This helps in establishing your 100% time as well as building your sense of how fast you need to shoot in order to achieve your target time.

[Racinready300ex]

16 hours ago, mniels said:

To be clear, I am not referring to drive or desire.  I dry fire nightly and pay close attention to how I practice as well.  I shoot at least once a week at my indoor range so at least I can work on first shot times (which are incredibly good due to that practice.)

 

The simple fact is that if you cannot live fire practice Steel Challenge, you are going to hit a ceiling.  It is not a hard stop ceiling, you can still improve, but it will take much, much longer.  And you will never be as good as you could be.

 

I live in a semi-rural area, and I have spent the last three months driving around like a vacuum salesman in the 50's, knocking on the doors of local farmers trying to find a place to practice.  I have posted online, talked to other shooters in the area, anything I can think of to find somewhere.  I have even put up a flyer at the local feed store.  I have just been striking out.  I have not given up, hopefully I will find something, but it definitely is not for a lack of trying.

 

Also, this isn't about money, I am referring to availability of practice space when I refer to resources.  I probably didn't make that clear.  However, if anyone would like to start a GoFundMe so I can buy some land, I won't complain!

 

The point being, please don't tell me it is a lack of drive.  

 

Marshall VA is a hour from Fredericksburg VA. Pretty good range there have you looked into joining that club and training there? I've shot there but I don't know what it takes be able to train. I'd start my search with any place you shot a match. You can ask the MD, if you can come help set up and tear down can you practice on one of the stages before you tear it down to leave. I've done this at USPSA matches.

 

Kind of crazy there aren't any ranges in your area of VA that you can train at. I live on Delmarva, with in a hour drive there are 4 ranges I could join if I wanted too. Some where harder to find then others. There is one right down the street from my house I didn't know existed until recently. I assume you've already talked to people at all the local gun shops? If you find one club the members might know of others. You're probably going to need to build relationships within the community, might not happen overnight. 

 

I've known guys that pooled their money to rent old chicken houses, put a pile of dirt in them and make a indoor range out of it. This was for shooting 22's with no wind to test ammo and setups. Those guys where competition for bragging rights at a local rimfire match that maybe had 15 shooters. The most they could ever win would be a little cup at the end of the year saying they were the best in the club.  Maybe this gives you a idea of the length people will go to win.

[mniels]

8 minutes ago, Racinready300ex said:

 

Marshall VA is a hour from Fredericksburg VA. Pretty good range there have you looked into joining that club and training there? I've shot there but I don't know what it takes be able to train. I'd start my search with any place you shot a match. You can ask the MD, if you can come help set up and tear down can you practice on one of the stages before you tear it down to leave. I've done this at USPSA matches.

 

Kind of crazy there aren't any ranges in your area of VA that you can train at. I live on Delmarva, with in a hour drive there are 4 ranges I could join if I wanted too. Some where harder to find then others. There is one right down the street from my house I didn't know existed until recently. I assume you've already talked to people at all the local gun shops? If you find one club the members might know of others. You're probably going to need to build relationships within the community, might not happen overnight. 

 

I've known guys that pooled their money to rent old chicken houses, put a pile of dirt in them and make a indoor range out of it. This was for shooting 22's with no wind to test ammo and setups. Those guys where competition for bragging rights at a local rimfire match that maybe had 15 shooters. The most they could ever win would be a little cup at the end of the year saying they were the best in the club.  Maybe this gives you a idea of the length people will go to win.

At the moment I belong to the Quantico Shooting Club on base.  Unfortunately, they are so busy that the small arms bays are always in use for competitions or military training.  What is the name of the club in Fredericksburg?  I shot a USPSA match down that way once, but I think it had Fairfax in the name, which was very confusing.

 

The other problem is drive time.  I would love to find somewhere local so I could hop out after work a couple of times a week.  I have my kids most weekends, so it makes it hard to drive 1 1/2, 2 hours to go somewhere and then only have maybe an hour and a half to set up and shoot before I have to get back.  That, and I try to shoot a match two or three weekends a month.  If I practice the other day of that weekend, I might get divorced. 

 

I talked the manager at the local Farm and Home store down the street from me, and he said he would ask around for me and see if anyone wanted to make a little extra money letting me shoot on their property.  Hopefully something pans out there.

[mniels]

44 minutes ago, apoc4lypse said:

For dry fire practice, I have all eight stages set up on the walls of my apartment.  I didn't want to spend money on banners so I calculated the scaled down sizes of the targets for 10ft away, cut them out of poster paper, and arranged them at the appropriate distances, given my height/sight line and the relative heights of the targets as they would appear.

 

I run through all eight stages at least once a day with one gun, shooting them as if I would a match and using my AMG Commander to record the dry fire time of the last shot.  This helps in establishing your 100% time as well as building your sense of how fast you need to shoot in order to achieve your target time.

That is a good idea, I use that timer as well.  Had not thought about using it to record just the last shot.

[Racinready300ex]

1 hour ago, mniels said:

At the moment I belong to the Quantico Shooting Club on base.  Unfortunately, they are so busy that the small arms bays are always in use for competitions or military training.  What is the name of the club in Fredericksburg?  I shot a USPSA match down that way once, but I think it had Fairfax in the name, which was very confusing.

 

The other problem is drive time.  I would love to find somewhere local so I could hop out after work a couple of times a week.  I have my kids most weekends, so it makes it hard to drive 1 1/2, 2 hours to go somewhere and then only have maybe an hour and a half to set up and shoot before I have to get back.  That, and I try to shoot a match two or three weekends a month.  If I practice the other day of that weekend, I might get divorced. 

 

I talked the manager at the local Farm and Home store down the street from me, and he said he would ask around for me and see if anyone wanted to make a little extra money letting me shoot on their property.  Hopefully something pans out there.

 

I believe it's Fredericksburg rod and gun club.

 

IMO there is a point where getting better takes practice even if that means skipping some matches to train. If you have a plan you can do a lot more in a lot less time going to the range to train vs shooting a match. I shoot USPSA not SC, I go to the range with enough mags already loaded to shoot the whole session. I know what I'm going to do and try to keep set up simple. I can be in and out in as little as 30 min. depending what I'm doing. 

 

You should look for a pod cast with Jay Beal on it. Listen to how much dryfire and visualization he does vs how few rounds he shoots in live fire. I think he said something like 3-5k rounds last year and finished top 10 at Nats. That might answer your question about how far someone can get. 

[PractricalUse]

I am sure most people could improve by a good margin.  The question is how much.  There are other factors in play as well.  I am 75 years old, and no matter how much I practice, I am not going to jump from a B shooter to a Master.  Reflexes and eye sight are just not going to get better over the next 25 years of shooting (I have evey intention of shooting my last match at age 100).  It would be fun to have the resources, range, time and ammo to try and make master!  I keep in mind, to quote my gunsmith, "The older I get, the better I used to be."

[Les Snyder]

I'm a retired high school science teacher, and as such I had access to 14 year old lab rats for most of the time I shot USPSA... one pre lab activity was to trap dropped meter sticks to determine reaction times, by manipulating the distance and time formula for constant acceleration ... distance equals 1/2 rate of acceleration multiplied by time squared) from the caught distance to determine the time... and attempted to equate so some identifiable physical characteristics

 

what we came up with for reaction times

left handed students ~ .12s

right handed with left eye dominant ~.15s

right handed but when you interlace fingers and over lap thumbs have left thumb on top  ~.17s

right handed with right eye dominance ~,21s

 

unfortunately I'm the slowest category, and at 73, even with recent cataract surgery, I don't think I could do any better than A... I'm currently a B in RFRO... regards Les   L747

[Thomas H]

I personally think that indeed, physicality makes a difference, and many people will indeed eventually hit a hard limit beyond which they can go no faster, with that hard limit flat-out being slower than certain standouts that exist in the sport today.

 

That being said, I also think that people's hard limit is at a significantly higher level than they think it is.  However, most will probably never reach it even with unlimited practice time because most people aren't good at self-analysis, nor do they take classes from people who are good at functional analysis.   (As such, they won't know why they aren't faster, and no one will be able to tell them what is wrong with their technique and where they are losing time.)

 

So....if people had the resources (the range, with steel) and time (and ammo!) to practice in a fairly unlimited fashion on their own, I personally think that most anyone (with basic average physicality) could make A-class in pretty much any centerfire division, and M-class in the rest.  With some good analysis, making M in centerfire and GM in the rest is completely possible.

 

However, since at the moment the top end of our sport (in the rimfire divisions especially) is significantly higher than 100% GM, my personal belief is that on their own, most people wouldn't be able to pass that point (making GM) by much.  (Some could, but these most likely had initial talent AND support to help them get better, as opposed to doing it all on their own.)

 

YMMV, of course.  And I don't mind people thinking I'm wrong, because I can't give you stats to back that up. Merely based on my experience teaching physical movement for 25 years, and shooting classes for 10 or so.

 

I'll note that I'm toying with the idea of collecting the set of GM classifications, but....I just don't know if I care enough about Limited, Open, and OSR to bother.  Once I get SS up 4% or so, I'll have all the rest.  Don't know if I'll ever try for those three--my current classifications in those were made using a Production, CO, and ISR gun respectively. 

 

Point to that is...if you like shooting, and don't have any particular physical issues, you can definitely make M with practice.  And probably GM, though that will probably require being able to practice using recoil management to help drive the gun from target to target, which will require a range.

 

Again, YMMV.  Feel free to ignore all of that.

[motosapiens]

On 8/26/2021 at 2:22 PM, Racinready300ex said:

 

IMO this sport really isn't all that athletic, mind set is more important overall. Obviously being young and fast doesn't hurt, but that's not the key. 

it seems like it should be that way but if you look at the results from worlds literally all the top shooters are kids with incredible reaction times. It’s not so much about athleticism and youth because kids generally suck at USPSA, but in steel they seem to have an advantage.

 

however, pretty much everybody can get significantly better than they are and at 60 I have put up a bunch of personal records this year without even focusing on steel. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by motosapiens