Moving reloads

[Fishbreath]

I was listening to a shooting podcast on the way home from the match this weekend, and one of the topics covered was reloads, and in particular reloads on the move. It was, of course, semiauto-focused. The advice given amounted to, focus on movement out of positions, hit the button, and get a magazine home as you have time.

 

Playing around in dry fire just now, I find myself wondering if the advice changes for revolver. I tried three things:

1. Leaving a position at a shooting-on-the-move kind of pace, hitting the reload in the first step or two, then going up to a full run.
2. Moving at a slow run while reloading, usually over the first few steps, then going to full speed if there's room left.
3. Opening the cylinder and ejecting the empties while driving hard out of the position, then finishing the load while decelerating into the next one.

 

Annoyingly, in my approximately six yards' width of dry fire space, all three take about three seconds, isolated as much as I can (leave position A on the beep, reload while moving six yards to position B, pull the trigger on an open target at position B), so the timer's not revealing the answer to me.

 

#1 feels like a good default: some heel-toe stepping gives me a stable platform from which to finish the reload fast, and then I can book it without concern for dexterity. It's also exactly the opposite of what I hear high-level (semi-auto) guys recommend. #3 usually leaves me finishing the load really late, after I've already come to a full stop, but does get me out of position A the fastest, and lets me zero in on my deceleration and stopping points for position B from the furthest away. I usually end up doing #2 under match conditions, and it works, I guess, but I feel like it could work better.

 

The timer might tell when I have a chance to try it at the range over a wider range of distances than 'too short for a run' to 'barely long enough for a run', but I was wondering if, having helped me immensely with a question of technology, the forum might be willing to weigh in on a question of technique, too.

 

[pskys2]

I'm of the #1 or #2 type mostly.  Always COF dependent, there are exceptions.  But I focus on getting the reload done before going too far, I just don't try to slow down in those moments.  Just in case there's a hang up.  I definitely don't like to do #3 and finish as I go into a position.  Though it has happened more than once.

[Dr. Phil]

10 hours ago, pskys2 said:

I'm of the #1 or #2 type mostly.  Always COF dependent, there are exceptions.  But I focus on getting the reload done before going too far, I just don't try to slow down in those moments.  Just in case there's a hang up.  I definitely don't like to do #3 and finish as I go into a position.  Though it has happened more than once.

Agree here.

My biggest "reload on the move" issue is the direction I am moving.

If I am going right, I use strong hand (my normal reload).

If going left I use weak hand so as not to break the 180.

I usually try to run the courses right but some are not set up that way or there is movement both ways.

[MikeBurgess]

here is my $.02 on the subject, 

 

In almost every case reloading the revo is the limiting factor in how quickly you can leave one shooting location and start shooting at another. As this is the case most of the time shooting into and out of location is likely a waste of good hits without the benefit of saving any time because you either arrive to the next spot with a empty gun or you stood at the last one while reloading. What I have found is anything under about 10 yards if I move my feet as fast as I can I will arrive before the reload is finished, this will of course be different for everyone depending on how well they can reload while moving fast or how fast they can move while reloading. What I have found works best for me is metering my movement speed so I arrive just as I finish the reload and have the gun presented to the target, this means on a 3 yard move I may just slowly walk there, on a 10 yard I may run hard for a few steps. In most cases up to about 5 yards the focus is 99% on the reload and getting it done clean and fast, as the distances or directions go up or get more complicated some of the attention will shift to the movement but still most is on the reload, its the complicated part that's easy to mess up. 

 

[pskys2]

8 hours ago, Dr. Phil said:

Agree here.

My biggest "reload on the move" issue is the direction I am moving.

If I am going right, I use strong hand (my normal reload).

If going left I use weak hand so as not to break the 180.

I usually try to run the courses right but some are not set up that way or there is movement both ways.

I've done the same thing, at times.  But even when moving Left I tend to do my normal SH reload and just turn my body to compensate for the 180.  The biggest issue to me is the retreat COF's.  I can, and have, used the WH reload in matches but it is rare.

[alecmc]

I'm of the opinion of that as long as your reload is done by the time you get to the next shooting position, it doesn't matter. 

 

 

[CtYankee]

Reloading with moonclips is easier to do on the move than with speed loaders. A little hiccup with speed loaders and you've got 6 rds in the dirt. The important thing is to get reloaded by the time you get to your next firing point. It is a compromise between having an effective reload and moving quickly.

[71Commander]

One thing that I can assure you is that when I practice it at home, it's faster than on the range.

[pskys2]

2 hours ago, 71Commander said:

One thing that I can assure you is that when I practice it at home, it's faster than on the range.

Isn't that the truth.  That recoil and the deep thought of hit or miss eat up time and Live Fire is the only solution.

[Fishbreath]

1 hour ago, 71Commander said:

One thing that I can assure you is that when I practice it at home, it's faster than on the range.

 

I pulled off a 1.57 reload in dry fire last night, which is about three quarters of a second faster than I've ever done one at a match or at the range.

 

On 4/27/2021 at 10:48 AM, MikeBurgess said:

In almost every case reloading the revo is the limiting factor in how quickly you can leave one shooting location and start shooting at another.

 

This is a good insight. I guess I'll have to see how the two ways that work best for me shake out on the clock, once my shot timer comes.

 

On 4/27/2021 at 4:17 PM, pskys2 said:

But even when moving Left I tend to do my normal SH reload and just turn my body to compensate for the 180.  The biggest issue to me is the retreat COF's.  I can, and have, used the WH reload in matches but it is rare.

 

I find I can manage a reload moving backward with either technique, as long as I'm retreating back and right relative to the stage, so I can turn my torso left. If I have to retreat back and left, that's a lot trickier.

[MikeBurgess]

2 minutes ago, Fishbreath said:

This is a good insight. I guess I'll have to see how the two ways that work best for me shake out on the clock, once my shot timer comes.

remember when your testing this that you need to also account for the hits on the targets either side of the reload, so its probably best to score your tests in hit factor and so the hits are included in your data.

[PatJones]

I find it very useful in live fire to shoot small portions of stages I build. Time yourself between two shooting positions _without_ a reload. Shoot the last half of one and the first half of the second position. Work this number down, have your gun extended and ready to shoot as you enter the position. Only then do you add the reload. The reload needs to be done by the time you need to extend the revolver, this is earlier than when your feet get to the position. If you're not getting the reload done before this point, then you need to prioritize the reload over the movement. Not all distances require you to prioritize the reload and you need to figure this out on your practice. On long runs we need to prioritize movement, just like the bottom feeders.

 

While you're moving between positions with and without reloads, take note of the time differences. For example, I know that my revolver reload costs me .4 seconds across an 8 foot wall. These things are useful information to have during stage planning and breakdown.

Edited April 29, 2021 by PatJones

[pskys2]

3 hours ago, PatJones said:

I find it very useful in live fire to shoot small portions of stages I build. Time yourself between two shooting positions _without_ a reload. Shoot the last half of one and the first half of the second position. Work this number down, have your gun extended and ready to shoot as you enter the position. Only then do you add the reload. The reload needs to be done by the time you need to extend the revolver, this is earlier than when your feet get to the position. If you're not getting the reload done before this point, then you need to prioritize the reload over the movement. Not all distances require you to prioritize the reload and you need to figure this out on your practice. On long runs we need to prioritize movement, just like the bottom feeders.

 

While you're moving between positions with and without reloads, take note of the time differences. For example, I know that my revolver reload costs me .4 seconds across an 8 foot wall. These things are useful information to have during stage planning and breakdown.

To me the one good thing about the Low Cap Divisions is the simplicity of "if you're moving you're reloading" the hard part is not wasting points with sloppy shooting.  

[SSGGlock]

I found for me depends on distance and direction.
 

If it’s a long distance, I may either reload before or when I get there, I’m trying to move as fast as I can and not worry about anything else.

 

if it’s a short distance, I may reload while moving, due to not enough room to generate any speed. 
 

if there’s any possibility of breaking the 180 on a reload, I’ll reload before leaving. 
 

Im sure I’m doing it completely wrong.

[PatJones]

22 minutes ago, pskys2 said:

To me the one good thing about the Low Cap Divisions is the simplicity of "if you're moving you're reloading" the hard part is not wasting points with sloppy shooting.  

We generally are reloading of we're moving, but we still need to be ready to shoot when we enter the position. The reload can mask a lot of problems with our movement. My stage times improved when I removed the reload from some of my training and focused on moving into and out of positions like a limited shooter.

 

The reload is a layer on top of the movement, we need to get the movement right as well. Shooting a revolver isn't too hard, it's the constant distractions from the shooting that makes all the low capacity divisions more difficult to master.

[MikeBurgess]

4 hours ago, PatJones said:

We generally are reloading of we're moving, but we still need to be ready to shoot when we enter the position. The reload can mask a lot of problems with our movement. My stage times improved when I removed the reload from some of my training and focused on moving into and out of positions like a limited shooter.

 

The reload is a layer on top of the movement, we need to get the movement right as well. Shooting a revolver isn't too hard, it's the constant distractions from the shooting that makes all the low capacity divisions more difficult to master.

Interesting take, I get a kick out of how different people see things differently, not right or wrong just different.

I have turned this around and in most cases I look at the movement being the layer added on top of the reload, this may be because I'm naturally pretty good at movement so I was constantly arriving not ready to shoot, turning it around and focusing on the reload helped me be ready sooner.  

[pskys2]

It seems it's ingrained in my psyche, when I move I start a Reload.  Have to actually "think" and fight NOT to do it when I shoot CO or Limited!  

[Fishbreath]

13 hours ago, PatJones said:

While you're moving between positions with and without reloads, take note of the time differences. For example, I know that my revolver reload costs me .4 seconds across an 8 foot wall. These things are useful information to have during stage planning and breakdown.

 

Thanks for a very useful post. I set up some little scenarios to test myself tonight, and I think I have some things to work on going forward.

[MattInTheHat]

It's a value prop to me. There's value to be found in lots of different scenarios on a stage, and those can include speed of reload, freeing your feet, freeing your mind, and freeing your platform.

 

Throw out everything, the best possible position to give yourself is to enter a position with your gun recharged and your eyes fully up and your grip perfect, then you just let your feet find the position and the rounds go out as perfect as possible. When I was practicing, this took about four or five full speed steps to accomplish with a reload. 

 

Next would be target difficulty, if you are moving a short distance you don't cheat the reload, it still has to happen as best you can manage, but you can cheat certain things like visual attention. You can cut tenths off a reload by giving it more visual attention if it isn't needed elsewhere (you're shifting a few feet from one window to another.) If the movement is shorter than the reload, then spend effort on the reload to get it done faster.

 

On the other hand, if you have a long or difficult bit of running and footwork to get to the new position, keep your eyes up and maximize efficiency with your feet and body, and let the reload happen more by feel. Assuming you've done enough dryfire to feel a reload out regardless of circumstance or failure. 

I can't recall the match, but it was a funny stage where you had to run about 30 feet across the bay and there were only 6 poppers, maybe one or two of which were visible from the starting position. No way to cheat it without going all the way to the end position. Most of the squad just ran to the final position and cleaned it, I thought I might be able to cheat it and run full speed while emptying my revolver and hitting the first one or two. Result was that I tried, I failed, but I still threw six and reloaded before the last position and my time was neutral compared to the others, cleaned the poppers and no blood on the scorecard. I spent 100% of my energy on getting there and thought I might have a few percent left to hit a target and give me a safety shot so I could have faster splits. Didn't work out, but didn't cost me.

Edited April 30, 2021 by MattInTheHat