Double Charge Boom!

[mcb]

First up this was my fault and I have no dilutions of being able to blame this on anyone but myself. It still sucks hardcore!

I was shooting my first match with my new (used but new to me) Smith and Wesson 610, at the Clang and Bang over by Pittsburg. On the first stage I was slow but I did OK. The second stage started badly with a squib. I cleared the squib and was allowed to start again. I reloaded after shooting six and the second round of the second moonclip went BOOOOM!!! I stop immediately knowing something was horribly wrong.

The cylinder was locked up tight. Closer examination showed the fired cartridge was badly squished out between the cylinder and recoil face. I had to drive the cylinder open and then use a dowel rod to drive the case out of the cylinder. The case came out in two pieces, nearly three. (see links to pictures below)

It was fairly obvious that I had had a double charge. I knew better than to use a powder that would allow a bullet to seat easily over two powder charges. When loading rifle cartridges I always chose powders that made double charges unlikely if not impossible. I went against that wisdom when I started loading 40 S&W and my 610 paid the price. I was loading 4.5 grain of Titegroup pushing 180 grain Berry bullet. So most likely I had 9 grain of Titegroup in that cartridge. Given the condition of the case and predictions from some internal ballistics software I have, I'm guessing chamber pressures were between 80,000-100,000 psi before the case blew

I got home that evening and cleaned the gun real well. It appears the frame and barrel are OK but the charge hole in the cylinder that experience the double charge is stretched between 0.004-0.010 inches in diameter at the month. It will probably need replacement. I am awaiting a shipping label from S&W. I am going to ship the revolver back to S&W for repairs and a full safety check-up.

I do however have to tip my hat to Smith and Wesson and that revolver. I shudder to think about what would have happened had that cartridge been fired in my XD-40. Despite all the badness I experienced no one was injured and for that I am VERY thankful, especially that those around me were not injured. I would have felt bad if I got hurt but worst if a bystander was hurt do to my mistake. I don't think I would have been that lucky if I was shooting my XD.

So I am immediately switching powders to something that fills that case more to make double charges more difficult. I am going to start with some Vihtavuori N340. If you have a good suggestion I would appreciate hearing them. I am also going to get my own reloader. I have been using a friend’s Square Deal but I have asked my wife to get me a 650 with the high/low powder checker for a Christmas present.

I have included a few links below to pictures of the aftermath. Feel free to give advice, point out lessons I have missed or even criticism. It was a bad experience but I was fortunate that no one was hurt and I want to make it a learning experience so feel free to learn me something.

Thanks for listening

mcb

Loaded Cylinder

Recoil Face

Moonclip

Case

Case 2

Edited November 14, 2005 by mcb

[Patrick Sweeney]

After the squib, did you check to make sure the bore was clear? Perhaps it wasn't a double charge but a bullet in the bore.

[Bill Sahlberg]

You are not the first one to have this happen. I had a double charge while shooting a Taurus 608 (8 shot.357) at the 1996 Canadian Provincials. I was using .38 Special brass and 10.5 grains of Winchester 540 under a Montana Gold 147 gr RN. When it lit off I just kept shooting and when I tried to reload I had to "hammer" the extractor against the next prop window. Much to my surprise I checked it out after finishing the stage and all was well. The case had blown ou the side and relieved the pressure and I still shoot the gun with no long term effects on accuracy or performance. Taurus makes a tough gun and in 1998 I went on to win USPSA Open Nationals with this same gun (no, Jerry Miculek was not shooting a wheelgun) I now shoot my 627s and load .38 Colt Shorts only to minor @ 135 PF. I would shoot the gun with good ammo and see if your accuracy or performance has changed before sending it back. This may save you alot of money as I am sure S&W will replace the cylinder and yoke assy and possibly even the bbl.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

Switch powder only if you feel you must. I have loaded with Tight group for some time in 38spl, 40 S&W, 10MM, 9MM, and 45ACP and do not feel the powder is at fault

Glad you were not injured as that is the most important thing.

regards,

[Carlos]

"I have asked my wife to get me a 650 with the high/low powder checker for a Christmas present."

This is an excellent idea in your situation.

As for switching to N340, it may well fill the case more, but it will kick a lot harder than Titegroup at the same bullet weight/PF. I do not personally believe in using the wrong powder in place of being careful. However, there is nothing wrong with using a powder checker to do the safety check for you.

If you stick with the powder change idea, there are powders coming out that feature bulkiness - such as brand new Trail Boss. I doubt you will see .40 cal data for it though; and its only for Lead bullets so far. It does however, take up a lot of room in the case.

[JohnRodriguez]

VV 340 would be the powder to switch to. 5.2 gr of powder with a 180 grain bullet will you at major or real close. Since it's a slower burning powder that titegroup, should have less kick. I

[R112mercer]

I am also going to get my own reloader. I have been using a friend’s Square Deal but I have asked my wife to get me a 650 with the high/low powder checker for a Christmas present.

First off I'm glad that no one was hurt. Second, definately get your own press, there's just to much that can go wrong using other peoples stuff, even if you set it up yourself. more on that later. As to the 650, it's an awesome press, but auto-indexing can be tough to deal with. You mentioned you used your friends Square Deal, which also auto-indexes. Depending on the amount you shoot the RL550 isn't a bad choice either. Just my .02.

I used to share an RL550 with my brother-in-law. I decided to make some pin loads in .45 using a 255 LSWC over 6.0 gr. of Blue Dot if I remember correctly (don't try that load at home, kids! I'm not sure if that's the right amount). I was making 500 rounds and while I was loading I noticed towards the end that I never had to fill the powder measure, and that it hadn't gone down as much as I thought. When I emptied the powder measure I heard an odd clunk, and a quick search turned up a .40 bullet in the powder jar. I didn't load .40 at the time. I believe my brother-in-law emptied a bullet puller into the powder jar, bullet and all. During loading the bullet migrated to the bottom of the measure and caused roughly 200+ underloaded and squib rounds. Buying my own XL650 solved that problem. Get your own set-up, trust me!

[mcb]

Thanks for all the responses. I am definitely look into getting the new reloader for myself. As for the powder change you guys are probably correct its probably not necessary but the extra safety margin would make me feel good until I have the new setup going well and confident I am not bone heading anymore loads.

Anyone have any idea how much its going to cost me if S&W has to put a new cylinder on my 610?

Again thanks

mcb

[hopalong]

MCB,

My 625 ran me about 150 bucks if I remember correctly (It was double charged too)

When I blew it up I too was using a friends loader RL550......I did not have any .45 dies at the time.

I have and was using a 650 but only in .40 and was using his until my caliber conversion came in for .45

The 650 will not let you accidentally double charge a shell, it will let you make a squib but no double.....I don't have a powder check by the way.

I have been using my 650 now for 3 years with no complaints, you will like it once you get used to it.

Sorry to hear about the boom, it is not fun.

Glad everyone including you are OK.

HOP

[Jerry V]

Hey MCB,

Ouch!!!!!

Glad no one was hurt.......too bad about the 610 though

Don't know how much it will cost, but from what I was told they only have unfluted cylinders left for the 610.....too bad.

Hope everything turns out well

--- Jerry

[Carmoney]

I understand people have different theories on this, but I believe very firmly that auto-indexing progressive machines (e.g. SDB, 650, 1050) are safer than those that do not auto-index (e.g. 550). You gotta try pretty hard to double-charge a round with a machine that rotates the shell out from under the powder measure on each and every upstroke! (Sorry, mcb.....sure glad you're OK.)

Mike

[Canuck-IL]

I believe very firmly that auto-indexing progressive machines (e.g. SDB, 650, 1050) are safer than those that do not auto-index (e.g. 550)

Ditto - with the L'n'Ls indexing, it's physically impossible to get the same case up into the powder drop twice...light loads due to the rotary drop bridging with flaky powders, however, are another issue.

/Bryan

[10mmdave]

I understand people have different theories on this, but I believe very firmly that auto-indexing progressive machines (e.g. SDB, 650, 1050) are safer than those that do not auto-index (e.g. 550). You gotta try pretty hard to double-charge a round with a machine that rotates the shell out from under the powder measure on each and every upstroke! (Sorry, mcb.....sure glad you're OK.)

Mike

Ditto what Mike says, been loading on both SD and 650 for quite a few years and haven't doubled or squibed a load yet (that sound is me knocking on wood)

And I have to confirm about the unfluted cylinder, I had a fiasco with S&W on a fluted 610

4-5 years ago, supposedly I got the last fluted cylinder

Now that's not to say you couldn't run a ball endmill down the side to get close to original.

Sorry you had the DC and glad no one was hurt.

[XRe]

Ditto - with the L'n'Ls indexing, it's physically impossible to get the same case up into the powder drop twice...

No, it's not - at least, not w/ a 650. I can't speak for the SDB. With a 650, if you raise the handle, lower it part way, but stop before the shell plate starts to index, and raise it again - bammo, double charge. However, it requires operator error to cause this to occur and not be noticed. I had problems with mine occasionally where the press would get jammed, and I always carefully checked what was on the shellplate before placing any more bullets, etc - auto-indexing isn't fool-proof....

Though the primer looks fine on the spent round in that moonclip, I wonder if you some had another squib that left a bullet in the front of the barrel, then lit off the next one, and bullet from the second round made contact while it was part way into the forcing cone, and blocking the cylinder gap (thus giving pressure nowhere to go)??

As others have said, glad you weren't hurt, and sorry that it happened!

[dillon]

XRe,

If you buy the newer locking linkage and return rod for your powder measure( a part generally reviled on this website), it physically blocks the powder bar from returning far enough to pick up a new powder charge until after the shellpalte begins to rotate. This will retrofit to all but the earliest automatic powder systems. If your powder system uses a bellcrank cube, then it can be updated. On a manually indexed machine such as the RL550, there is no safety advantage to this system, but the old style parts are all gone.

[Steelshooter3]

Ditto - with the L'n'Ls indexing, it's physically impossible to get the same case up into the powder drop twice...

No, it's not - at least, not w/ a 650. I can't speak for the SDB. With a 650, if you raise the handle, lower it part way, but stop before the shell plate starts to index, and raise it again - bammo, double charge. However, it requires operator error to cause this to occur and not be noticed. I had problems with mine occasionally where the press would get jammed, and I always carefully checked what was on the shellplate before placing any more bullets, etc - auto-indexing isn't fool-proof....

Though the primer looks fine on the spent round in that moonclip, I wonder if you some had another squib that left a bullet in the front of the barrel, then lit off the next one, and bullet from the second round made contact while it was part way into the forcing cone, and blocking the cylinder gap (thus giving pressure nowhere to go)??

As others have said, glad you weren't hurt, and sorry that it happened!

Concur with XRe, you can double-charge both 650 & SDB if you don't complete the cycle due to jam, primer problem or just talented like me Edited November 2, 2005 by Steelshooter3

[SIX SHOT]

I understand people have different theories on this, but I believe very firmly that auto-indexing progressive machines (e.g. SDB, 650, 1050) are safer than those that do not auto-index (e.g. 550). You gotta try pretty hard to double-charge a round with a machine that rotates the shell out from under the powder measure on each and every upstroke! (Sorry, mcb.....sure glad you're OK.)

Mike

Ditto what Mike says, been loading on both SD and 650 for quite a few years and haven't doubled or squibed a load yet (that sound is me knocking on wood)

And I have to confirm about the unfluted cylinder, I had a fiasco with S&W on a fluted 610

4-5 years ago, supposedly I got the last fluted cylinder

Now that's not to say you couldn't run a ball endmill down the side to get close to original.

Sorry you had the DC and glad no one was hurt.

10mmDave,

Just bought a spare fluted cylinder for my 610 today, bought a spare barrel also, just to have on hand. Dick

[10mmdave]

Just bought a spare fluted cylinder for my 610 today, bought a spare barrel also, just to have on hand. Dick

Cool

From where ??

Did it come with a star ??

(...and drum roll please.......) How much

[Canuck-IL]

Ditto - with the L'n'Ls indexing, it's physically impossible

No, it's not - at least, not w/ a 650

That's why it said L'n'L = Hornady Lock and Load, progressive, comparable to a 650 but better...

/Bryan

[10mmdave]

I have to add to my original post......I guess I would have to say that using a progressive

press, IMO it would be so much harder to do a double charge.

Agreed, you can do it with a SDB, maybe a 650, heck maybe with all of them but if you

always complete the stroke of a progressive reloader a double charge has got to be

highly unlikely.

If you have a problem, complete the stroke of the machine, take out all the cases from

there stations, fix the problem, and put the charged case back in the powder station (been

there) then it's not the press that did the DC.

Again, glad no one was hurt.

Be careful out there.

[mcb]

Well guys my 610 was dropped off at the UPS center this morning for quick trip back to S&W. Hopefully they can fix any damage and get it back to me soon.

I was thinking that while S&W has it I might have them chamfer the new cylinder. The trigger is already pretty light and very smooth so what else would you guys suggest to have done to get it really ready for competition. Will S&W put an oversize cylinder release on or do I have to go to a third party for that part?

Thanks

mcb

Edited November 4, 2005 by mcb

[rtr]

Something that is often overlooked in regards to avoiding double charges is the powder, the bulk of the powder can dictate how easy it is to notice a double charge, for instance universal clays in a .40 is very very noticeable when you double charge a case, some rounds are impossible to double charge (like 3N37 in major 9). Just another thing to consider when picking your powder.

[Oldgrey]

Howdy,

perhaps I use the machine incorrectly, but I have never been able to come close to the rounds loaded per hour numbers given in the advertising for progressive presses. I have been using a RCBS Piggyback (yes-you can make one run) and a Dillon 550, and I hunker up close and look in EVERY single freaking case before I stick a slug on it.

Goofing around in the woods is one thing, but in an organized event with a guy standing right next to me holding a timer...well the feelings I would have after an ammunition malfunction that would put a Range Officer in danger is too horrible for me to consider doing things any other way.

Maybe it is possible to be too anal about safety but I know of no other way to be absolutely, positively, sure.

Grey

.....Colt!

[Carmoney]

I was thinking that while S&W has it I might have them chamfer the new cylinder. The trigger is already pretty light and very smooth so what else would you guys suggest to have done to get it really ready for competition. Will S&W put an oversize cylinder release on or do I have to go to a third party for that part?

mcb, if you don't have the stuff to do it yourself, I would definitely have them chamfer the charge holes while it's there. Tell them it's a competition gun and you want the most aggressive chamfer they can give it. The oversize cylinder release will have to come from elsewhere I think (I like the Ed Brown product, but there are several others, you'll find them here if you do a search), but it's an easy drop-in deal.

That takes care of the chamfer, action is already good....hmmm...sights? grips?

[38superman]

mcb,

In thinking about what happened to you, I wonder if there could be an explanation other than a double charge.

I realize your gun is a revolver, but sometimes excessive pressure shows up in autos when the bullet is not held firmly enough by the case.

A bullet with a loose fit will sometimes get pushed deeper into the case when it hits the feed ramp. The loss of internal space in the casing can cause catastrophic pressure spikes.

This may be unlikely, but is there any chance you may have dropped the moonclip before you loaded it into the gun? If so you could be the victim of a faulty or mal-adjusted loading die.

Before you change powders check your loads to make sure that the bullet is secure.

You can do this by measuring the overall length, then press the nose of the bullet against a hard surface. Now re-measure.

If the bullet is now several thousanths shorter you may have a problem.

Tls