Sig Romeo3 XL adjustment "click"

[regor]

1 minute ago, Posvar said:

Was this with a frame mounted open gun or slide mounted?

 

Frame mounted on a CZ Czechmate.

[Posvar]

9 minutes ago, regor said:

 

Frame mounted on a CZ Czechmate.

Ok. I wonder if the XL optics are worse as my Romeo3 Max is still dead on with my open gun. 

[Rich406]

13 minutes ago, Posvar said:

Ok. I wonder if the XL optics are worse as my Romeo3 Max is still dead on with my open gun. 

they both have the exact same internal electronics. 

[Posvar]

3 minutes ago, Rich406 said:

they both have the exact same internal electronics. 

I agree but for some reason we keep seeing more issues with the XL. Perhaps it’s just coincidental or maybe there are just more XL out there in the wild than the Romeo3 Max 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Posvar

[regor]

Took mine apart and took the brass plate off from the rear. I’m pretty sure @Lastcat is correct that the brass plate is what secures the elevation adjustment. With it off the elevation spins with very little effort.
 

The little threaded protrustion in the back center is the elevation adjustment screw. You can see a little nub sticking out of it. That goes through a small hole in the brass plate,  and the bend in the plate adds tension to the elevation screw when the plate is screwed down. As far as I can tell that is the only mechanism for keeping the elevation adjustment secure.
 

I added a little extra bend to the plate and it did make the elevation adjustment noticeable more stiff, though it still doesn’t have clicks. 
 

Be very careful with the brass plate’s screws as well as the screws for the optic baseplate; they are very soft and very likely to strip if you try to tighten them too much, which is unfortunate because it really limits how much extra bend you can put in the brass plate. 

[Lastcat]

6 minutes ago, regor said:

Took mine apart and took the brass plate off from the rear. I’m pretty sure @Lastcat is correct that the brass plate is what secures the elevation adjustment. With it off the elevation spins with very little effort.
 

The little threaded protrustion in the back center is the elevation adjustment screw. You can see a little nub sticking out of it. That goes through a small hole in the brass plate,  and the bend in the plate adds tension to the elevation screw when the plate is screwed down. As far as I can tell that is the only mechanism for keeping the elevation adjustment secure.
 

I added a little extra bend to the plate and it did make the elevation adjustment noticeable more stiff, though it still doesn’t have clicks. 
 

Be very careful with the brass plate’s screws as well as the screws for the optic baseplate; they are very soft and very likely to strip if you try to tighten them too much, which is unfortunate because it really limits how much extra bend you can put in the brass plate. 

 

Interesting. Thanks for the post. So far my Elevation has been solid and the windage as well, since the adjustment. Hope you get it to work for ya. 

[texasdawg]

 It would be interesting to see a R3 max apart to see if the internals are the same,,, I have a R3XL on my PCC and it is not very positive in the clicks, but do not want to take it of yet to fix,,,

[Rich406]

6 hours ago, texasdawg said:

 It would be interesting to see a R3 max apart to see if the internals are the same,,, I have a R3XL on my PCC and it is not very positive in the clicks, but do not want to take it of yet to fix,,,

I’ve had them both apart. There are no obvious differences.

[texasdawg]

thanks for the info,,,

 

[CHA-LEE]

If you are not adding some thread lock to the "Tension" screw then it will back out again and your windage adjustment will likely start to drift again.

 

The repeated stories of people sending their sights in for this issue and SIG claiming "No Trouble Found" is alarming. They are obviously not verifying the screw torque settings on all of the screws that actually matter. From a basic troubleshooting perspective if someone is claiming that the windage adjustment screw is drifting then the FIRST thing they should be checking is if the tension screw is tightened to the proper spec. 

 

That being said, you guys realize that these Red Dot sights are being mass produced by the lowest bidder in China right? SIG gets them made for a good discount then turns around and charges a premium for it by simply slapping their logo on it and calling it theirs. Capitalism at its best. 

[Lastcat]

1 hour ago, CHA-LEE said:

If you are not adding some thread lock to the "Tension" screw then it will back out again and your windage adjustment will likely start to drift again.

 

The repeated stories of people sending their sights in for this issue and SIG claiming "No Trouble Found" is alarming. They are obviously not verifying the screw torque settings on all of the screws that actually matter. From a basic troubleshooting perspective if someone is claiming that the windage adjustment screw is drifting then the FIRST thing they should be checking is if the tension screw is tightened to the proper spec. 

 

That being said, you guys realize that these Red Dot sights are being mass produced by the lowest bidder in China right? SIG gets them made for a good discount then turns around and charges a premium for it by simply slapping their logo on it and calling it theirs. Capitalism at its best. 

 

Oh ya, I'm sure Japan can make these for $20 each. Haven't had my windage screw change in 4 Matches (yet), but if so, I could add a drop of blue loctite if needed. 

[Lastcat]

23 hours ago, regor said:

Took mine apart and took the brass plate off from the rear. I’m pretty sure @Lastcat is correct that the brass plate is what secures the elevation adjustment. With it off the elevation spins with very little effort.
 

The little threaded protrustion in the back center is the elevation adjustment screw. You can see a little nub sticking out of it. That goes through a small hole in the brass plate,  and the bend in the plate adds tension to the elevation screw when the plate is screwed down. As far as I can tell that is the only mechanism for keeping the elevation adjustment secure.
 

I added a little extra bend to the plate and it did make the elevation adjustment noticeable more stiff, though it still doesn’t have clicks. 
 

Be very careful with the brass plate’s screws as well as the screws for the optic baseplate; they are very soft and very likely to strip if you try to tighten them too much, which is unfortunate because it really limits how much extra bend you can put in the brass plate. 

 

Looking at the Elev. Screw. It looks like the end of the set screw has a post that applies pressure to lower or raise the Diode. Bending, adding shims or a spring might not change anything. Might be best to add Blue Loctite. Get it mounted quickly and dial it back in. With the Blue, you still have a chance to make changes without much effort after it has dried, verse's using the Red or 602. Just a thought. 

[shred]

I have no problem getting Sig to replace them.  The problem is that seems to be all they do, grab another one off the shelf and send it.

 

That said, the last couple replacements have had more clickiness to them so maybe they are catching on.

 

Lately I've started putting a drop of paint on the screw to see if it moves after the gun is zeroed and I'm thinking maybe a glob of something like fingernail polish or other strong but removable goop (superglue might be a bit much) could help keep it from moving too.

 

[vgdvc]

21 minutes ago, shred said:

I have no problem getting Sig to replace them.  The problem is that seems to be all they do, grab another one off the shelf and send it.

 

That said, the last couple replacements have had more clickiness to them so maybe they are catching on.

 

Lately I've started putting a drop of paint on the screw to see if it moves after the gun is zeroed and I'm thinking maybe a glob of something like fingernail polish or other strong but removable goop (superglue might be a bit much) could help keep it from moving too.

 

So when you send it in for a replacement due to the fact that the adjustment moves untintionally how do you word it and what has the response been? One of the reasons that led me to create this post is reports that Sig "could not replicate the same condition" when sent back so they return it with nothing done which has led people to try to fix it themselves.

[shred]

Last one I made a 10-second phone video. Showed spot of paint on windage screw, shot 6 rounds SHO while filming, focused back in on spot of paint on windage screw now half a turn around the dial.  Previously I've explained how I shot a string of rounds off a rest at a plate and each landed an inch further to the right than the one before it.

 

I call support (plan for a wait on hold), explain it (emailed the video) and they email a return label.  Btw, the online support is much slower, and if you just randomly send one back with a complaint, I have no idea what they do.

 

 

 

 

 

[vgdvc]

3 hours ago, shred said:

Last one I made a 10-second phone video. Showed spot of paint on windage screw, shot 6 rounds SHO while filming, focused back in on spot of paint on windage screw now half a turn around the dial.  Previously I've explained how I shot a string of rounds off a rest at a plate and each landed an inch further to the right than the one before it.

 

I call support (plan for a wait on hold), explain it (emailed the video) and they email a return label.  Btw, the online support is much slower, and if you just randomly send one back with a complaint, I have no idea what they do.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the detailed response. BTW was yours returned a slide mounted application or frame mount?

[vgdvc]

Is it just me that feels it's ridiculous that we on this post (and I'm sure there are more out there) have paid about $500+ for a very basic type of optic that can't seem to have reliable windsge and/or elevation adjustments?

[vgdvc]

On 9/15/2020 at 7:52 PM, CHA-LEE said:

If you are not adding some thread lock to the "Tension" screw then it will back out again and your windage adjustment will likely start to drift again.

 

The repeated stories of people sending their sights in for this issue and SIG claiming "No Trouble Found" is alarming. They are obviously not verifying the screw torque settings on all of the screws that actually matter. From a basic troubleshooting perspective if someone is claiming that the windage adjustment screw is drifting then the FIRST thing they should be checking is if the tension screw is tightened to the proper spec. 

 

That being said, you guys realize that these Red Dot sights are being mass produced by the lowest bidder in China right? SIG gets them made for a good discount then turns around and charges a premium for it by simply slapping their logo on it and calling it theirs. Capitalism at its best. 

These products are actually,supposedly, made in Japan as marked on the unit itself. My experience has been Japan has good engineering,materials and quality control with optics as well as other products that require precision and refinement. Perhaps the fiinal assembly point or some other means of manufacture has watered down the QC. My next optic will be an SRO (made in USA) as I have not heard of any consistent or many issues at all for that matter.

[shred]

6 hours ago, vgdvc said:

Thanks for the detailed response. BTW was yours returned a slide mounted application or frame mount?

Those have been slide mounts.  The ones on frame mounts have been rock solid so far.

 

Having been in new product development, there's a lot of things that get considered when designing a product and then implementing fixes to them.  More than likely some engineer looked at the specs for the adjustments and it said something like 'withstand +/-60g for 25,000 cycles' or something and they declared 'sure, that'll work'.  But, for some reasons that didn't work out or take into effect elevated temperatures or manufacturing tolerances or lubrication seeping from somewhere else or improper torque settings or whatever is the root cause for this particular field-failure. 

 

A good company will look at the return rate and warranty claims and put some failure analysis people on it if they get big enough.  Those people get failed units from support, analyze why they failed and propose fixes.  Management then decides if it's worth the cost to implement them in that product or add them into the next one.  If management sees only 1 in 1000 or whatever fail, they might just decide it's most efficient to just keep on keeping on and send out replacements as needed.

 

That's why I send mine back even though the fix isn't difficult (plus they're under warranty)-- the more they get back, the more likely they are to fix it.

 

FWIW, before C-more finally got their design to where it was in the mid '90s, it was not unusual for scopes to break, even on frame mounts.  There were shooters with businesses that 'bulletproofed' scopes for USPSA shooters for a living.  May be a coincidence, but the C-more was the only one that didn't use coil springs internally.  We all know coil springs eventually wear out...

 

[regor]

11 hours ago, vgdvc said:

Is it just me that feels it's ridiculous that we on this post (and I'm sure there are more out there) have paid about $500+ for a very basic type of optic that can't seem to have reliable windsge and/or elevation adjustments?

 

Agreed, it is ridiculous that an optic with a MSRP of $660 does not have rock solid locking mechanism. In this case, having the elevation be entirely dependent on the tiny bend in a little piece of metal to keep it secure seems the opposite of reliable and repeatable. Vortex has external locks on several of the MRDs and are half the MSRP and 1/3 of the street price, so I have a really hard time believing that adding locks is cost prohibitive. 

[regor]

Put about 500 rounds through it after re-zeroing and adding a nail polish witness mark and checked at the end of the match I shot this weekend and it was still dead on + no signs of a shift in the witness mark. 500 rounds is hardly a thorough test, but I am cautiously optimistic that it will continue to hold. 

[Lastcat]

2 hours ago, regor said:

Put about 500 rounds through it after re-zeroing and adding a nail polish witness mark and checked at the end of the match I shot this weekend and it was still dead on + no signs of a shift in the witness mark. 500 rounds is hardly a thorough test, but I am cautiously optimistic that it will continue to hold. 

 

Good to hear. Thanks for the update regor.

[CHA-LEE]

On 9/18/2020 at 2:15 AM, vgdvc said:

These products are actually,supposedly, made in Japan as marked on the unit itself. My experience has been Japan has good engineering,materials and quality control with optics as well as other products that require precision and refinement. Perhaps the fiinal assembly point or some other means of manufacture has watered down the QC. My next optic will be an SRO (made in USA) as I have not heard of any consistent or many issues at all for that matter.

Better keep digging on your research of the SRO. There have been many people who thought that the SRO was going to be the next best thing then ended up dumping it after experiencing its unique issues (Double Dot in certain lighting conditions & distortion at the edges of the glass). The SRO's may "Live" longer or be made in the USA, but that in itself doesn't make it the best optic on the market for a competition gun.

[vgdvc]

20 hours ago, CHA-LEE said:

Better keep digging on your research of the SRO. There have been many people who thought that the SRO was going to be the next best thing then ended up dumping it after experiencing its unique issues (Double Dot in certain lighting conditions & distortion at the edges of the glass). The SRO's may "Live" longer or be made in the USA, but that in itself doesn't make it the best optic on the market for a competition gun.

Thanks for the heads up, I will. Not drawing any final conclusions but based on forums and personal experiences I've seen with several shooters that have them on slide and frame mounted applications I have yet one to tell me they have had an issue with it. This is a greater consistency than any other optic I've  researched for our sport application.  I'm sure no one optic is going to have every feature desirable be at 100%, but reliability is at the front of importance IMO. I'm not biased toward any of these products so I would certainly welcome other experienced opinions to the better choices. Thanks

[Ryan67]

On 9/23/2020 at 12:00 PM, CHA-LEE said:

Better keep digging on your research of the SRO. There have been many people who thought that the SRO was going to be the next best thing then ended up dumping it after experiencing its unique issues (Double Dot in certain lighting conditions & distortion at the edges of the glass). The SRO's may "Live" longer or be made in the USA, but that in itself doesn't make it the best optic on the market for a competition gun.

What would you say the best option is? I have an SRO on a CO gun have seen the second dot issue but only when looking for it but could see it being an issue in the right situation. I'm considering an SRO, XL or maybe the big 510c for an open gun.