National Match Division Shooter Recognition

[dwzuspsa]

Really ladies and gentlemen...this is not about the prize table-more like recognizing the top finishers in the classes in USPSA.  With the niik systems and the computers we have we can tighten up the classifier system and have National Champions GM-D.  I have worked and been to numerous Nationals starting in D class and going up thru A class.  Each time I tried to acheive to the best of my ability and sometimes came in top of my class.  Make fun all you want but I think in my old age this would put a different look for the Nationals....we all pay the same USPSA dues.

[SGT_Schultz]

35 minutes ago, dwzuspsa said:

Really ladies and gentlemen...this is not about the prize table-more like recognizing the top finishers in the classes in USPSA.  With the niik systems and the computers we have we can tighten up the classifier system and have National Champions GM-D.  I have worked and been to numerous Nationals starting in D class and going up thru A class.  Each time I tried to acheive to the best of my ability and sometimes came in top of my class.  Make fun all you want but I think in my old age this would put a different look for the Nationals....we all pay the same USPSA dues.

I used to GAF about that when I started in sporting clays.  Pretty soon "1st C class" in the state shoot became pretty meaningless.

 

If you want recognition, go play for money in trap......

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, dwzuspsa said:

Really ladies and gentlemen...this is not about the prize table-more like recognizing the top finishers in the classes in USPSA.  With the niik systems and the computers we have we can tighten up the classifier system and have National Champions GM-D.  I have worked and been to numerous Nationals starting in D class and going up thru A class.  Each time I tried to acheive to the best of my ability and sometimes came in top of my class.  Make fun all you want but I think in my old age this would put a different look for the Nationals....we all pay the same USPSA dues.

it's still a participation trophy. rewarding people for not getting good enough to bump up a class is stupid.

[IVC]

3 hours ago, dwzuspsa said:

Really ladies and gentlemen...this is not about the prize table-more like recognizing the top finishers in the classes in USPSA.  With the niik systems and the computers we have we can tighten up the classifier system and have National Champions GM-D.  I have worked and been to numerous Nationals starting in D class and going up thru A class.  Each time I tried to acheive to the best of my ability and sometimes came in top of my class.  Make fun all you want but I think in my old age this would put a different look for the Nationals....we all pay the same USPSA dues.

It's not about making fun, it's about recognizing what it is - not much.

 

I've been on the Top 20 list on and off. In fact, I'm on it right now in at least one Steel Challenge division, something I don't even practice, but just shot for fun 2-3 times because there is a club that runs the official stages. The only good that came out of being on this list was to impress a non-shooting friend. It lasted for about 10 minutes, then I explained what it really meant and the enthusiasm was gone. I wasn't this "one of the top shooters in the nation" after all... That's the problem with the concept of classes as anything but a good monitor of one's own progress or a quick way to get a rough idea about the level of a shooter you haven't seen shoot before. (Once you see someone shoot you pretty much know what level they are.) 

[dwzuspsa]

Amazing....which one of you guys started out at GM....In 35 years of shooting I have never seen anyone new to the sport start out at GM...almost Biblical!

[waktasz]

Only one person that I know of, from your state too.

[CClassForLife]

1 minute ago, waktasz said:

Only one person that I know of, from your state too.

All hail the Dark Lord Stoeger , may his Alphas be our own.

[rowdyb]

27 minutes ago, waktasz said:

Only one person that I know of, from your state too.

Vogel says his initial classification was GM as well.

[motosapiens]

51 minutes ago, dwzuspsa said:

Amazing....which one of you guys started out at GM....In 35 years of shooting I have never seen anyone new to the sport start out at GM...almost Biblical!

 

I'm still not GM, and at 59, and with the recent HHF adjustments, probably never will be (unless you count steel challenge, where I just got a G card this week after 9 years of competition, woot woot). That doesn't mean I want participation trophies. It doesn't mean I want to pretend that it's cool to not practice enough to get bumped up a class so that I can 'win' my class.

 

I've been to 5-6 nationals as a C, then B, then A, now M. I can't say I ever payed attention to how I finished in the class. For me it's enough to simply continue to improve, and I can measure that by my percentage of the division winner, and by my division placing at major matches. If those numbers keep going up, then I am 'winning'.

Edited July 24, 2020 by motosapiens

[SGT_Schultz]

1 hour ago, dwzuspsa said:

Amazing....which one of you guys started out at GM....In 35 years of shooting I have never seen anyone new to the sport start out at GM...almost Biblical!

 

Your post is what I see in the dictionary when I look up the meaning of the latin phrase "non sequitur"

Edited July 24, 2020 by SGT_Schultz

[IVC]

On 7/24/2020 at 1:52 PM, dwzuspsa said:

Amazing....which one of you guys started out at GM....In 35 years of shooting I have never seen anyone new to the sport start out at GM...almost Biblical!

You start at the bottom and work yourself up, but the times and accuracy you're looking to reach are pretty universal and are set by the top shooters. The same goes for your performance in the match. Your percent is what it is. 

 

If you get a kick from beating a buddy, that's fine. If you get a kick from beating guys who are worse shooters than you, that's fine too. Just look at those who finish below you and have a sense of accomplishment that you beat them. Nothing wrong with analyzing your match results. In fact, you should always analyze them because you can learn what your personal low hanging fruit is, then beat more guys the next time.

 

However, it's also okay to look at the top and enjoy sneaking up on them. I am lucky that I shoot in an area with a lot of good shooters, where you never get this false sense of complacency by winning local matches. The guys who win local matches here do well in majors, so competing against them is a blessing, not a curse. As I catch up with them, I know exactly where I am as a shooter. That's what many of us enjoy much more - catching up the good guys, not beating those who are below us (don't practice, too new, worry about winning classes, etc.). 

[RJH]

Screw it, I changed my mind.  I want my ribbon and i want TGO to start taping my targets

[IHAVEGAS]

On 7/23/2020 at 9:47 PM, IVC said:

That's the problem with the concept of classes as anything but a good monitor of one's own progress or a quick way to get a rough idea about the level of a shooter you haven't seen shoot before.

 

Classes - handicaps - divisions for young and old , man or woman- etc, greatly add to the enjoyment of the masses. It is fun to try and win "x" class with a good performance and most of us have enjoyed watching young folks progress and take a lot of pride from winning B class at a match or whatever. 

[IVC]

2 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Classes - handicaps - divisions for young and old , man or woman- etc, greatly add to the enjoyment of the masses. It is fun to try and win "x" class with a good performance and most of us have enjoyed watching young folks progress and take a lot of pride from winning B class at a match or whatever. 

Separation based on gender and age is different and it makes sense in sports that depend on physical strength and agility, but I'll maintain that the separation based on "skill level" is meaningless because the very concept of winning is about being better than the class one is winning against, which would make winning either sandbagging (intentional) or competing in the wrong class (time to move up). 

 

Parity is important in team sports where neither party will enjoy the game if there is a large skill mismatch, but USPSA is an individual sport without an opponent so the final ranking is simply the ordering of performance of each competitor. You can pick and choose which competitors to "count" as beating you, but you can't change the ranking...

[SGT_Schultz]

7 minutes ago, IVC said:

Separation based on gender and age is different and it makes sense in sports that depend on physical strength and agility,

 

I can't agree about the gender separation.  I am being constantly told that men and women are equals.

[IHAVEGAS]

5 minutes ago, IVC said:

Separation based on gender and age is different and it makes sense in sports that depend on physical strength and agility, but I'll maintain that the separation based on "skill level" is meaningless because the very concept of winning is about being better than the class one is winning against, which would make winning either sandbagging (intentional) or competing in the wrong class (time to move up). 

 

Parity is important in team sports where neither party will enjoy the game if there is a large skill mismatch, but USPSA is an individual sport without an opponent so the final ranking is simply the ordering of performance of each competitor. You can pick and choose which competitors to "count" as beating you, but you can't change the ranking...

 

We can agree to disagree here. I think the overwhelming majority know they will never be in the top 20, and really do not care, but it is fun to attempt your personal best against people with the same skill level. 

[IVC]

Just now, SGT_Schultz said:

 

I can't agree about the gender separation.  I am being constantly told that men and women are equals.

Sarcasm aside, there are sports where men and women compete alongside and where age doesn't matter. Equestrian competition is one. Racing (vehicle) is another. However, most sports are not in that category no matter what the PC police claims...

[IVC]

2 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

We can agree to disagree here. I think the overwhelming majority know they will never be in the top 20, and really do not care, but it is fun to attempt your personal best against people with the same skill level. 

Fair point. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

We can agree to disagree here. I think the overwhelming majority know they will never be in the top 20, and really do not care, but it is fun to attempt your personal best against people with the same skill level. 

 

wait, wut? how do you measure 'personal best' if you are only measuring against other people who don't practice enough to move up?  My personal best is defined either by percentage of the winner, or as a raw score (classifiers, steel challenge). It makes zero difference how many other people who don't practice show up.

[Joe4d]

well if you shoot against basically the same guys every month and see your self move up in the rankings against those same guys.
Probably something a large majority of people shooting USPSA matches do. 
I imagine the vast majority of shooters only shoot local, and simply look at order of finnish

[RJH]

I'm leaning towards worrying about the classification system, whether for or against, is dumb. Shoot how you want to shoot, accept or decline your Ribbon, and don't worry about what the hell everybody else is doing

[IHAVEGAS]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

wait, wut? how do you measure 'personal best' if you are only measuring against other people who don't practice enough to move up?  My personal best is defined either by percentage of the winner, or as a raw score (classifiers, steel challenge). It makes zero difference how many other people who don't practice show up.

 

Very easy actually, you have seen yourself shoot . I have never needed to look at the results in order to know how I shot. The score is handy in telling me which of the folks at my skill level also had a good or bad day and who earned bragging rights this time. 

If you are young and ambitious enough that practice is still taking you forward rather than either holding you on a plateau or mitigating the rate of your decline due to aging, great. 

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

If you are young and ambitious enough that practice is still taking you forward rather than either holding you on a plateau or mitigating the rate of your decline due to aging, great. 

 

I'm only 59, so I'm getting better every year, but I supposed in another 5-10 years that may change.

[IHAVEGAS]

12 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

I'm only 59, so I'm getting better every year, but I supposed in another 5-10 years that may change.

 

Or tomorrow. A good friend's father once told me that we tend to age in spurts, time and observation has supported his comment. 

 

But I hope it is 10 years. 

[IVC]

On 7/27/2020 at 9:39 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

I think the overwhelming majority know they will never be in the top 20, and really do not care

Just to make it clear...

 

I have NEVER been a REAL "top 20," whether it's classification or Nationals. The "top 20" USPSA list is per class, so it lists top 20 "D" class shooters, top 20 "C" class shooters, and so on. You end up on the list by blowing your classifier and instead of moving to the next class up, you end up a percent or three below the threshold, so you end up being a "top 20 [your current class] shooter" instead of being the bottom of the next class up.

 

That's why it's funny to show it to the non-shooting friend(s) and impress them about being on a list, while at the same time your classification is below everyone in the next class. Of course, I always tell them what the trick is - if I'm going to lie, I'm going to lie about the size of my d!@#k, like everyone else, not something as obvious as the list of percentages...