The Alpha Dropper?

[HOGRIDER]

Finally got time to unpack the new 9mm Alpha Dropper............

 

Dirtchevy841 had provided some excellent dimensions above on the .40 S&W Alpha:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/284639-the-alpha-dropper/?do=findComment&comment=3177986

 

And since mine was in 9mm, thought I'd get some comparison specs just to see where the differences were.  As stated above, the Alpha utilizes a continuous taper starting at around .352" and going up another .010" till it starts the aggressive "flare".  OAL was right about 2.900" which is just over 1/4" longer than the MBF funnel.

 

Maybe this pic will give some semblance of differences in the stock RL1100 expander, the 9mm MBF, and the 9mm Alpha.  Hope to start fresh tomorrow morning and see if the Alpha holds up to it's claims!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by HOGRIDER
sp

[Dirtchevy841]

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

Finally got time to unpack the new 9mm Alpha Dropper............

 

Dirtchevy841 had provided some excellent dimensions above on the .40 S&W Alpha:

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/284639-the-alpha-dropper/?do=findComment&comment=3177986

 

And since mine was in 9mm, thought I'd get some comparison specs just to see where the differences were.  As stated above, the Alpha utilizes a continuous taper starting at around .352" and going up another .010" till it starts the aggressive "flare".  OAL was right about 2.900" which is just over 1/4" longer than the MBF funnel.

 

Maybe this pic will give some semblance of differences in the stock RL1100 expander, the 9mm MBF, and the 9mm Alpha.  Hope to start fresh tomorrow morning and see if the Alpha holds up to it's claims!

 

 

 

 

 

It will and you’ll love it.  

[CantBelieveItsNotButter]

Ive run the Alpha dropper for 46,000 rds of 9mm. Press is a 1050 with Mark 7 Autodrive running at 1,950RPH with a Dillon resizing die. The only thing that stopped me from running it faster was powder spillage when the indexing stopped. 
 

Out of 46k, I had less than 15 toppled bullets. Yes, I kept track to help give SSI feedback. 
 

Before this, I had the MBF die. Toppled bullets were so common I accepted it as a  reloading reality and had the machine crawling at 1,500RPH. 
 

The only headstamp I noticed sticking was CBC. 
 

I HIGHLY recommend this powder dropper. Nathan has done his homework. You won’t be disappointed. 

 

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by CantBelieveItsNotButter

[HOGRIDER]

18 hours ago, Dirtchevy841 said:

It will and you’ll love it.  

 

Dirt and EVERYONE:

 

For some reason, I had undesirable results with my 20 round test run.  I thought maybe it's got some protectant on it, so gave it a thorough cleaning then applied a bit of lube to the flaring section along with One Shot on cases and a bit in the case mouths.........

 

Did not help!

 

So right now I'm scratching my head..........

 

It was suggested to me by an industry professional, that the primary reason for sticking issues was my use of the 9mm Lee Undersize Die!

 

Right now, for those successfully using the Alpha Dropper, would you mind sharing your caliber and sizing die being used?

 

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

[Dirtchevy841]

1 hour ago, HOGRIDER said:

 

Dirt and EVERYONE:

 

For some reason, I had undesirable results with my 20 round test run.  I thought maybe it's got some protectant on it, so gave it a thorough cleaning then applied a bit of lube to the flaring section along with One Shot on cases and a bit in the case mouths.........

 

Did not help!

 

So right now I'm scratching my head..........

 

It was suggested to me by an industry professional, that the primary reason for sticking issues was my use of the 9mm Lee Undersize Die!

 

Right now, for those successfully using the Alpha Dropper, would you mind sharing your caliber and sizing die being used?

 

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

That sucks. Contact Nathan see what he says. Did it take the coating off?

[OptimiStick]

9mm and U-Die on a 650 with a few hundred rounds in. I still get a little sticking. I haven't tested the 40 yet. 

 

I'll be putting it in my Revo this weekend and running a few thousand also. Running 9mm U-Die here too

Edited May 15, 2020 by OptimiStick

[AHI]

HOGRIDER

     Do you wet clean your brass? To me this appears to be the same problem you have been chasing

acrost 3 different threds.

[HOGRIDER]

3 hours ago, Dirtchevy841 said:

That sucks. Contact Nathan see what he says. Did it take the coating off?

Dirt:

I hope to contact Nathan and establish some communication on Monday.  Right now, it definitely appears to be depositing brass on the funnel; but I haven't tried to remove it and clean to see if the coating is coming off..........

 

I was doing a little research and came across this post of yours from a few years back.............

Are you still using this same process or something similar?

 

THANKS!

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by HOGRIDER
sp

[HOGRIDER]

2 hours ago, OptimiStick said:

9mm and U-Die on a 650 with a few hundred rounds in. I still get a little sticking. I haven't tested the 40 yet. 

 

I'll be putting it in my Revo this weekend and running a few thousand also. Running 9mm U-Die here too

Thanks, and appreciate your feedback.

[HOGRIDER]

1 hour ago, AHI said:

HOGRIDER

     Do you wet clean your brass? To me this appears to be the same problem you have been chasing

acrost 3 different threds.

AHI:

What I do know is I've moved up to a S1050/RL1100 type press, and I'm attempting to set it up CORRECTLY using methods that have worked before in years of loading on XL650s.  And, the ONLY THING that I'm doing different on MY END, other than the press, is I'm trying to set up using the Lee 9mm Undersize Die instead of my Redding Pro Titanium Sizing Die.  And yes, I have the opportunity to stop using the UDie, but I would like to give it a go as it seems to be the go-to sizing die for so many competition and professional shooters; and I don't give up easy!

 

Yes, I do clean my brass with the wet tumble, stainless pins process; and have for many years.  And I feel confident that many, many shooters on this forum also use the wet tumble cleaning process!  It seem that those companies that provide PROCESSED BRASS, appear to use the "wet clean" process also; just to name a few........

https://www.ammobrass.com/product-page/9mm-fully-processed-reloading-brass

https://eastcoastreloading.com/processed-9mm/

https://blueridgebrass.com/product/bulk-wholesale-processed-9mm-reloading-brass/

 

So yea, it may appear to some of the seasoned loaders here that I have a problem "I've been chasing across 3 different threads"..........but feel free to avoid reading my posts if they upset you or aggravate you in any way!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by HOGRIDER
sp

[AHI]

sorry if i up set you . you have a problem i have seen with some other reloaders. just tracking down the root cause.

you have brass deposits on your expander ,trying to find out why , fyi I process brass for lots of people and now only wet clean

rifle brass .      in addition have been noticing a lot of issues related to wet clean methods.  

            the brass is becoming less elastic    

Edited May 16, 2020 by AHI

[Dirtchevy841]

22 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said:

Dirt:

I hope to contact Nathan and establish some communication on Monday.  Right now, it definitely appears to be depositing brass on the funnel; but I haven't tried to remove it and clean to see if the coating is coming off..........

 

I was doing a little research and came across this post of yours from a few years back.............

Are you still using this same process or something similar?

 

THANKS!

 

I backed it down to 1 hour total. 30 minutes and change water another 30 and that’s it. Sometimes I go less than an hour depending on how dirty brass is. Even with less time the grass was still popping with the mbf. I am actually in the process of going to a cement mixer and getting away from the pins altogether and trying a wet wash only with flaps in mixer to stir up the brass and maybe corn cob media finishing tumble in a smaller mixer. Could do 2 5 gal buckets at a time. 

[HOGRIDER]

6 minutes ago, Dirtchevy841 said:

I backed it down to 1 hour total. 30 minutes and change water another 30 and that’s it. Sometimes I go less than an hour depending on how dirty brass is. Even with less time the grass was still popping with the mbf. I am actually in the process of going to a cement mixer and getting away from the pins altogether and trying a wet wash only with flaps in mixer to stir up the brass and maybe corn cob media finishing tumble in a smaller mixer. Could do 2 5 gal buckets at a time. 

I have really tried to do my research, and it seems the solutions are all over the place!

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/242169-case-sticking-to-powder-funnel/

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/265993-cases-sticking-on-powder-funnel-new-problem/

https://forums.brianenos.com/topic/253314-dillon-650-powder-die-sticking/

 

I think your onto something by doing away with the stainless pins and using some sort of solution that will still get the brass "clean enough", but without being "squeaky" clean.

 

I'm wondering if this might be a solution for cleaning without pins?

https://www.thereloadingstation.com/products/brass-juice-case-wash

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

 

[ddc]

47 minutes ago, HOGRIDER said:

AHI:

What I do know is I've moved up to a S1050/RL1100 type press, and I'm attempting to set it up CORRECTLY using methods that have worked before in years of loading on XL650s.  And, the ONLY THING that I'm doing different on MY END, other than the press, is I'm trying to set up using the Lee 9mm Undersize Die instead of my Redding Pro Titanium Sizing Die.  And yes, I have the opportunity to stop using the UDie, but I would like to give it a go as it seems to be the go-to sizing die for so many competition and professional shooters; and I don't give up easy!

 

 

So we have a process and a set of dies that has been proven on your 650.

 

But now we have two new variables:

1. RL1100

2. Udie

 

Now things don't work. Both powder funnels accumulate crap.

Because we have two variables we don't know which is the problem. Could be both.

So eliminate one of the variables. the Udie.

Set up the RL1100 so as to mimic as closely as possible the 650 set up using the Redding die. I'd go back to the MBF funnel also since that is what you used on the 650.

 

See what happens.

 

If everything works great then add the Udie.

 

See what happens.

 

If things fall apart then it seems it must be related to the Udie.

 

Working with two variables at the same time is a surefire way to drive yourself up the wall.

 

[hwansikcjswo]

I got the alpha funnel in 9mm and facing one issue.

 

I tested the ammo I made with it at the range today and experiencing rounds (2-3 out of 10) hitting D zone or even outside the target at 25 yards accuracy testing with 2 of my Walther Q5SF. All the other shots will group normally in the center (2-3" group).This didn't happen with MBF funnel.

 

My ammo recipe is coated bullets (gallant) 125gr with Clean Shot 4.1gr (135pf) at 1.145 OAL.

 

With MBF, I was belling the brass at around 0.390 -0.395 to prevent the coating from scraping off. For Alpha, I did belling to 0.385. According to my push test (push the bullet against a table to see how deep it goes before crimping) it tells me If I bell at 0.395, it will go as deep as 1.140 OAL. I want my ammo to be 1.145-1.150 length and I made a decision to not bell too much to prevent the bullet set-back. With 0.385, the bullet was pushed down to 1.170  OAL.

 

I would appreciate any thoughts on this.

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by hwansikcjswo

[Dirtchevy841]

1 hour ago, hwansikcjswo said:

I got the alpha funnel in 9mm and facing one issue.

 

I tested the ammo I made with it at the range today and experiencing rounds (2-3 out of 10) hitting D zone or even outside the target at 25 yards accuracy testing with 2 of my Walther Q5SF. All the other shots will group normally in the center (2-3" group).This didn't happen with MBF funnel.

 

My ammo recipe is coated bullets (gallant) 125gr with Clean Shot 4.1gr (135pf) at 1.145 OAL.

 

With MBF, I was belling the brass at around 0.390 -0.395 to prevent the coating from scraping off. For Alpha, I did belling to 0.385. According to my push test (push the bullet against a table to see how deep it goes before crimping) it tells me If I bell at 0.395, it will go as deep as 1.140 OAL. I want my ammo to be 1.145-1.150 length and I made a decision to not bell too much to prevent the bullet set-back. With 0.385, the bullet was pushed down to 1.170  OAL.

 

I would appreciate any thoughts on this.

 

What does the funnel have to do with the accuracy? Only thing droppers are doing is setting the flare to receive the bullet for seating. The crimp die takes it out no matter how much flare is on the case and setback is fixed with the amount of crimp. So I am not getting how the funnel is affecting your accuracy. I see my alpha at the same flare as my mbf was doing so it’s the same. If your flaring it at the same measurements you should be good no matter what funnel you are using. 

[hwansikcjswo]

11 minutes ago, Dirtchevy841 said:

What does the funnel have to do with the accuracy? Only thing droppers are doing is setting the flare to receive the bullet for seating. The crimp die takes it out no matter how much flare is on the case and setback is fixed with the amount of crimp. So I am not getting how the funnel is affecting your accuracy. I see my alpha at the same flare as my mbf was doing so it’s the same. If your flaring it at the same measurements you should be good no matter what funnel you are using. 

 

I was suspecting the neck tension being an issue. Previously when I started using more coated bullets or plated, I saw bullets being undersized as the seating die pushing the bullet down with too much neck tension. This is why I was suspecting the new funnel opening up too much, not in the mouth of the bullet but perhaps the body of the brass.

Edited May 16, 2020 by hwansikcjswo

[Dirtchevy841]

24 minutes ago, hwansikcjswo said:

 

I was suspecting the neck tension being an issue. Previously when I started using more coated bullets or plated, I saw bullets being undersized as the seating die pushing the bullet down with too much neck tension. This is why I was suspecting the new funnel opening up too much, not in the mouth of the bullet but perhaps the body of the brass.

Gotcha. I don’t think that’s the issue with the alpha because of the 1 step tapper of it. If anything the mbf should be more like that bring it has that 2 step tapper and the rappers are straight unlike the alpha dropper. I also use mainly blue bullets. From what I’ve tested so far with both droppers and how the bullet sits in the case they are basically identical in the process. But I am loading 40. 

[OptimiStick]

I wet tumble with pins (and now chips too) but lube my brass.  Before lubing my brass I definitely had really bad sticking to the funnel. It's because dry tumbling leaves a little carbon/dust on there which helps dry lube a bit, and wet gets it much cleaner. I'm not sure removing pins will help in that regard. It's the detergent and lemishine. Interesting on the brass juice. I'll give that a try and skip the pins. Pin cleanup, and especially chip cleanup, is a real PITA.

 

I sort by headstamp and notice its way worse in some brass vs others. Blazer and Win stick the list. R-P and F-C the worst.

 

 

[RGA]

Just fwiw but I switched to the Lyman M-die on my 650's to load 9mm and .45acp. No sticking at all. I use LEE U dies and of course I polished the expanders.

 

Another suggestion for the experienced inaccuracy/unpredictability of the loaded ammunition is that some bullets are not seated straight. (Had that happen in the past after flaring too much in my case.)

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by RGA

[OptimiStick]

I just changed it out with an older DAA 9mm die on my Mark7. Same height difference. I use a lee universal expander die to hold the funnel for belling in my Revolution. The alpha is so much longer, I can only thread the cap on top of the Lee die about 2-3 threads, and the die body I have to back out so it's about 3 threads recessed into the toolhead.

 

[ddc]

1 hour ago, OptimiStick said:

I just changed it out with an older DAA 9mm die on my Mark7. Same height difference. I use a lee universal expander die to hold the funnel for belling in my Revolution. The alpha is so much longer, I can only thread the cap on top of the Lee die about 2-3 threads, and the die body I have to back out so it's about 3 threads recessed into the toolhead.

 

 

I was wondering if that was going to fit in the Lee Universal Expander die.

I thought the MBF die was almost too long. Now this is even longer. 

 

[OptimiStick]

45 minutes ago, ddc said:

 

I was wondering if that was going to fit in the Lee Universal Expander die.

I thought the MBF die was almost too long. Now this is even longer. 

 

 

 

Yeah. I don't know if i'm going to leave it like this or not. I guess since the brass is the weak spot, I'm not going to rip threads or anything.

[hwansikcjswo]

18 hours ago, RGA said:

 

Another suggestion for the experienced inaccuracy/unpredictability of the loaded ammunition is that some bullets are not seated straight

 

I made another batch with slightly less belling (0.382 ish) and made sure all the bullets are seated straight.

 

I tested 100 rounds today and zero flyers. 

Thank you so much for your input.

 

This Alpha dropper is pretty awesome. It does a good job with minimizing or even eliminating stickiness. I'd recommend this product, especially to people who automated their press.

[CantBelieveItsNotButter]

@HOGRIDER

I was using a Dillon size die.  That picture of the funnel doesn't look bad in my opinion.  Im trying to resize the photo of mine so I can post it here.