cm 13-05 reload issue

[bret]

George Jones,

In this case, you are supposed to fire 8 shots, reload and fire 8 shots.

If a shooter only fired 7 shots, reloaded then fired 8 shots after the reload, how would you score it ?

 

[George Jones]

OK Bret,  how would you score it?  Rationale for any answer.  

[bret]

6 minutes ago, George Jones said:

OK Bret,  how would you score it?  Rationale for any answer.  

No procedurals, he can't be penalized for not taking the required shots, he does get the mike or mikes as the case may be.

IMO he reloaded as the WSB required.

Edited January 24, 2020 by bret

[PhilTerry]

Any penalty is going to ruin a classifier! Just shoot it as specified.

[bret]

Just now, PhilTerry said:

Any penalty is going to ruin a classifier! Just shoot it as specified.

I agree but it is good for people to know how to properly score a stage, even if the stage score ends up being a 0.

[George Jones]

Bret,

Applicable rule?

[bret]

3 minutes ago, George Jones said:

Bret,

Applicable rule?

10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2.

Since he fired 7 shots, reloaded then fired 8 shots, I don't think he violated 10.2.4

10.2.4  A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

[George Jones]

I hate to admit it, but I agree.  

Of course, this is my personal opinion and has no official standing.

Sometimes, it can be just as important to find a rule which avoids applying a penalty.

George

[bret]

6 minutes ago, George Jones said:

I hate to admit it, but I agree.  

Of course, this is my personal opinion and has no official standing.

Sometimes, it can be just as important to find a rule which avoids applying a penalty.

George

in the case of firing 7 shots reloading firing 8 shots, the shooter got a Mike, that is -10 points, plus he lost any points he would have got by the shot assuming he hit the A zone, so that is losing 15 points on a 80 point stage, not good for your HF.

But in the case of shooting 7, reloading firing 9, he reloaded, early, gets 8 procedurals IMO, would be better to either take the mike and only fire 8 shots after the reload.

 

[George Jones]

Now you're making my head hurt!  

[bret]

10 minutes ago, George Jones said:

Now you're making my head hurt!  

I appreciate your input, helping to clarify how the rules can be applied.

Thanks

[Schutzenmeister]

George - I'm going to enter a bit of a pettifog here … primarily to split the proverbial hairs and see what really applies in this case.  (Thank you Chief Justice Roberts!)

 

The WSB, as I read it says:  Virginia count. T1-4 engage with 2 rounds each perform mandatory reload and then 2 rounds each again.  (I don't know if this is the exact wording in the Classifier, but this is what the OP posted …)  Given this wording, it seems clear to me the mandatory reload comes between the 8th and 9th rounds fired.  The shooter reloaded between the 7th and 8th rounds … and finishes out the stage firing 9 total rounds after his reload.  He did not reload after round 8.

 

10.2.4 states  "A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed."  [emphasis added]

 

As the penalty for failure to reload is defined and spelled out separately from the 'generic' penalty provisions of 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 it should take precedence in this scenario.  Here, the shooter fails to make his reload between the 8th and 9th rounds as required.  Hence the penalty should be one per shot fired etc., etc. … in this case 8.

 

Factors which are not relevant:

 

- The point value(s) earned, +/-, on any target(s) downrange … The procedural call should be made before scoring the targets.

- The net effect on HF or what it does to the shooter's classification.

- The concept of "Just shoot it as specified."  (Sometimes defecation occurs and we simply need to score things according to the applicable rules.)

 

OK - I've provided the draconian answer quoting rules to support it.  What would be the justification for scoring this otherwise?

 

Flak jacket on … Waiting to hear the counter argument.  (Please - No one take it personally.  Just trying to flesh out the argument!)

[bret]

4 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

George - I'm going to enter a bit of a pettifog here … primarily to split the proverbial hairs and see what really applies in this case.  (Thank you Chief Justice Roberts!)

 

The WSB, as I read it says:  Virginia count. T1-4 engage with 2 rounds each perform mandatory reload and then 2 rounds each again.  (I don't know if this is the exact wording in the Classifier, but this is what the OP posted …)  Given this wording, it seems clear to me the mandatory reload comes between the 8th and 9th rounds fired.  The shooter reloaded between the 7th and 8th rounds … and finishes out the stage firing 9 total rounds after his reload.  He did not reload after round 8.

 

10.2.4 states  "A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed."  [emphasis added]

 

As the penalty for failure to reload is defined and spelled out separately from the 'generic' penalty provisions of 10.2.1 and 10.2.2 it should take precedence in this scenario.  Here, the shooter fails to make his reload between the 8th and 9th rounds as required.  Hence the penalty should be one per shot fired etc., etc. … in this case 8.

 

Factors which are not relevant:

 

- The point value(s) earned, +/-, on any target(s) downrange … The procedural call should be made before scoring the targets.

- The net effect on HF or what it does to the shooter's classification.

- The concept of "Just shoot it as specified."  (Sometimes defecation occurs and we simply need to score things according to the applicable rules.)

 

OK - I've provided the draconian answer quoting rules to support it.  What would be the justification for scoring this otherwise?

 

Flak jacket on … Waiting to hear the counter argument.  (Please - No one take it personally.  Just trying to flesh out the argument!)

In this case, fired 7 shots, reloaded and fired 9 shots, he gets 8 procedurals IMO.

 

[George Jones]

I did not get into this to get pettifu...d er, pettifogged. 

I'm tied up in something else and will not go into the endless rabbit hole of multiple variations of brain damage. 

You big boys have fun.

[driver8M3]

21 minutes ago, Schutzenmeister said:

10.2.4 states  "A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed."  [emphasis added]

 

Flak jacket on … Waiting to hear the counter argument.  (Please - No one take it personally.  Just trying to flesh out the argument!)

 

Before you get to the part you emphasized with bold font, you have to satisfy the first part (fail to comply with the mandatory reload). But the shooter performed the mandatory reload. It's perfectly legal to perform the reload at any time after the 4 targets have been engaged (even if with just 1 round each). What the competitor does after that point might incur other penalties, but the mandatory reload has been satisfied so you shouldn't use 10.2.4.

 

10.2.4 should apply when a reload isn't done either before the competitor re-engages the same targets or starts to engage a new array of targets that is to be engaged after the reload. You want to treat the shooter who does 7-reload-9 the same as the shooter who fires 16 shots with no reload. The 7-reload-9 competitor engaged 4 targets, reloaded and engaged the 4 targets again.

 

[Bhayden]

ok, I looked up the WSB on the USPSA site. Here's the relevant quote:

 

engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each, make a mandatory reload using a magazine from the table only, then engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each.

 

Reading it, it plainly says that only 8 rounds should be fired after the reload. 

 

So, my call would be 1 extra shot. under 9.4.5.1. No other penalties.

Before someone asks, no extra hits because the number of hits on targets don't exceed the total number specified for the stage.

 

Bill Hayden

 

[bret]

3 minutes ago, Bhayden said:

ok, I looked up the WSB on the USPSA site. Here's the relevant quote:

 

engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each, make a mandatory reload using a magazine from the table only, then engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each.

 

Reading it, it plainly says that only 8 rounds should be fired after the reload. 

 

So, my call would be 1 extra shot. under 9.4.5.1. No other penalties.

Before someone asks, no extra hits because the number of hits on targets don't exceed the total number specified for the stage.

 

Bill Hayden

 

how would it be 1 extra shot?

Only 16 shots were fired in a 16 round virginia count stage, only 1 string.

[George Jones]

Before someone I know gets into trouble.....

Key words "in component string or stage".  It's a single string.

Firing 7, then 9 is NOT an Extra Shot penalty.  16 shots are specified.  The shooter fired 16.  It would take a 17th shot to qualify for that penalty.

Edited January 24, 2020 by George Jones

[Bhayden]

Both correct, my bad. 

[PatJones]

Any penalty is going to ruin a classifier! Just shoot it as specified.

Doesn't always work that way. Classifier be damned, it's a stage at the match and I want the maximum stage points I can earn.

We shot 03-11 last Sunday. After the first string I noticed a missing hole in the first target, I'd called a marginal hit. During the second string of fire I intentionally put an extra shot on the target. A -10 Mike became a -10 Extra Shot and a +5 Alpha. No I didn't level up, but given the miss I maximised the points I could earn at that time.

You don't suppose all this is the reason that IPSC did away with Virginia count do you? Given that the high hit factors are likely to be shot clean with all alphas, is there a real reason we couldn't start moving in that direction and we add and subtract classifiers.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[bret]

25 minutes ago, PatJones said:

Doesn't always work that way. Classifier be damned, it's a stage at the match and I want the maximum stage points I can earn.

We shot 03-11 last Sunday. After the first string I noticed a missing hole in the first target, I'd called a marginal hit. During the second string of fire I intentionally put an extra shot on the target. A -10 Mike became a -10 Extra Shot and a +5 Alpha. No I didn't level up, but given the miss I maximised the points I could earn at that time.

You don't suppose all this is the reason that IPSC did away with Virginia count do you? Given that the high hit factors are likely to be shot clean with all alphas, is there a real reason we couldn't start moving in that direction and we add and subtract classifiers.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 

I have fired an extra shot on a Virginia count stage when I knew I had a Mike.

 

The difference is being down 10 points instead of being down 15.

 

I think virginia count has its place in matches.

[Sarge]

15 minutes ago, bret said:

I have fired an extra shot on a Virginia count stage when I knew I had a Mike.

 

The difference is being down 10 points instead of being down 15.

 

I think virginia count has its place in matches.

But you better be fast or the extra time kills you

[GrumpyOne]

Breaking it down.

 

1. Did the shooter follow the WSB? No. He only fired 7 shots before his reload (engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each). While I can't see penalizing someone for this, it does specifically state fire 8. It does not state that he cannot make a reload before he fires his 8th shot, only that he must perform a mandatory reload after his 8th shot. He failed to perform the mandatory reload at the proper time. Procedural.

 

2. Did the shooter perform a mandatory reload after his 8th shot? No. The shooter continued to shoot the remainder of the string. 8 procedurals. 

 

Even VC is freestyle, to a degree. You could, if you wanted to, fire 2, reload, fire 2, reload, fire 4, reload, and then fire 8. But the be all end all is, the shooter didn't follow the WSB, and didn't reload after his 8th round. 9 procedurals.

[bret]

18 minutes ago, Sarge said:

But you better be fast or the extra time kills you

It's usually on a multi string stage, where I verify it's a Mike preparing for the next string, so I fire 3 shots instead of 2 on the target with a Mike.

[bret]

6 minutes ago, GrumpyOne said:

Breaking it down.

 

1. Did the shooter follow the WSB? No. He only fired 7 shots before his reload (engage T1-T4 with only two rounds each). While I can't see penalizing someone for this, it does specifically state fire 8. It does not state that he cannot make a reload before he fires his 8th shot, only that he must perform a mandatory reload after his 8th shot. He failed to perform the mandatory reload at the proper time. Procedural.

 

2. Did the shooter perform a mandatory reload after his 8th shot? No. The shooter continued to shoot the remainder of the string. 8 procedurals. 

 

Even VC is freestyle, to a degree. You could, if you wanted to, fire 2, reload, fire 2, reload, fire 4, reload, and then fire 8. But the be all end all is, the shooter didn't follow the WSB, and didn't reload after his 8th round. 9 procedurals.

8 procedurals,  not 9.