Production gun wrong start position

[MikeBurgess]

12 minutes ago, robchavous said:

 

Realizing before the start signal is still too late as you are per the rules in the course of fire at that point and have already broken the rule.  

 

 

You seem to be saying having the hammer back after  make ready but before the start signal is breaking the rules and a bump to open, but what about when they rack the slide to chamber a round? what rule says they have to lower the hammer before they holster?

 

also I have seen shooters chamber a round apply the safety drop the mag holster the gun  top up the mag draw the gun seat the mag drop the hammer, reholster and assume the start position, to the best of my knowledge no rules were broken 

[broadside72]

Just now, bret said:

If the shooter corrects it, nothing happens since he did not start with the hammer back safety on.

 

No rules were violated.

 

The equipment violation occurred during the COF (after Make Ready), so I agree in principle with robchavous but I agree with you that before the start there is no advantage and it was not a safety violation as that ready condition is legal for DA/SA.

[driver8M3]

3 hours ago, robchavous said:

 

6.2.5.1 However, if a competitor fails to satisfy the equipment or other requirements of a declared handgun Division during a course of fire, the competitor will be placed in Open Division

 

8.3.1 “Make Ready” – This command signifies the start of “the Course of Fire”.

 

Once "Make Ready" has been issued everything that follows is during the course of fire.  So if you holster the gun after getting that command in start condition not valid for your division you are bumped to Open.

 

where in the rules does it say that having a cocked and locked production gun in the holster (at anytime after make ready) means a move to open? why do you draw the line at the gun being in the holster? would you also move me to open for holding a cocked and locked production gun in my hand but not putting it in the holster?

[bret]

7 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

The equipment violation occurred during the COF (after Make Ready), so I agree in principle with robchavous but I agree with you that before the start there is no advantage and it was not a safety violation as that ready condition is legal for DA/SA.

There was no equipment violation, if the shooter didn't start with hammer back safety on.

 

Holstering a gun with the hammer back safety on is not a rules violation,  starting the stage with the hammer back safety on would be.

 

If someone is looking to bump someone to open for momentarily holstering a double action pistol in production with hammer back safety on, but not starting the stage like that is a major douche bag. 

[jcc7x7]

Remember don't be a Dick! LoL

[RJH]

15 minutes ago, bret said:

There was no equipment violation, if the shooter didn't start with hammer back safety on.

 

Holstering a gun with the hammer back safety on is not a rules violation,  starting the stage with the hammer back safety on would be.

 

If someone is looking to bump someone to open for momentarily holstering a double action pistol in production with hammer back safety on, but not starting the stage like that is a major douche bag. 

 

While i don't disagree with what you are saying, if someone barneys with 170mm mag do you bump them to open?  

Edited October 14, 2019 by RJH

[broadside72]

6 minutes ago, driver8M3 said:

 

where in the rules does it say that having a cocked and locked production gun in the holster (at anytime after make ready) means a move to open? why do you draw the line at the gun being in the holster? would you also move me to open for holding a cocked and locked production gun in my hand but not putting it in the holster?

I see where is coming from. 8.3.1 is the definition of Make Ready and it says "and prepare the firearm in accordance with the written stage briefing". If that says "loaded and holstered" then holstering the production gun with external hammer cocked and locked is not in compliance with D4 Special Condition #1 "when in ready condition". The ready condition is not defined anywhere as after "Are you ready?". So even holstering with hammer back and safety on after the start signal in production is a bump to open per the "letter of the law" going by that special condition.

We all get the intent of the rule and once again this is proof that the rule book is not always clear and consistent.  Those special conditions should indicate "prior to the start signal" or similar language

 

[broadside72]

3 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

While i don't disagree with what you are saying, if someone barneys with their 33 round glock mag do you bump them to open?  

 

no because the mag limits applies specifically "after the start signal"

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

no because the mag limits applies specifically "after the start signal"

 

WHere does the rule book say that, all i am seeing right now is that all mags used in competition have to conform production  appendix 21.7

 

For what it is worth, i wouldn't bump anyone for holstering cocked or the long mags, if it was correct at the start signal

[MemphisMechanic]

9 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

While i don't disagree with what you are saying, if someone barneys with 170mm mag do you bump them to open?  

No. That’s a bump to PCC.

[bret]

You barney with a 170 in any division but Open, welcome to open.

 

The rule about magazine capacity in production says no more than 10 rounds in any magazine after the start signal. 

 

But magazine max lengths apply during the cof. 

 

The cof starts at make ready.

[RJH]

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

No. That’s a bump to PCC.

 

You must have quoted me as i was editing.  After posting the 33 round question, i remembered that they were not legal in open either and that would be a no score so  i adjusted it to 170mm, but i do like the bump to pcc idea

[RJH]

1 minute ago, bret said:

You barney with a 170 in any division but Open, welcome to open.

 

The rule about magazine capacity in production says no more than 10 rounds in any magazine after the start signal. 

 

But magazine max lengths apply during the cof. 

 

The cof starts at make ready.

 

So by this same linear logic then wouldn't you have to bump someone to open for holstering their cocked and locked production gun?  Because all the same rules apply

[bret]

15 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

 

no because the mag limits applies specifically "after the start signal"

Please show the rule that says after the start signal is the only time magazine length applies.

 

If that is the case how can chrono bump you to open for too long of mags, or you shoot for no score in open if your mags are too long?

 

There is no start signal at the chrono stage.

Edited October 14, 2019 by bret

[bret]

5 minutes ago, MemphisMechanic said:

No. That’s a bump to PCC.

There is no bump to pcc

[MemphisMechanic]

7 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

The ready condition is not defined anywhere as after "Are you ready?". So even holstering with hammer back and safety on after the start signal in production is a bump to open per the "letter of the law" going by that special condition.

Okay. So we have a Production shooter with a Shadow 2 who cannot legally own fullcap mags because he lives in Maryland. 
 

Are you saying that if this man does the following after Make Ready:

 

Chambers a round. 
Ejects mag.

Holsters with hammer back & on safe.

Places that mag in a pouch.

Draws a new mag.

Draws handgun.

Inserts full mag.

Decocks the gun and holsters.

Assumes start position.

...then he should be bumped to Open in any way shape or form?

 

If so, you are reading things into the rules that are not actually there. And no one agrees with you.

Hopefully I’m misunderstanding you.  

 

[bret]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

 

So by this same linear logic then wouldn't you have to bump someone to open for holstering their cocked and locked production gun?  Because all the same rules apply

No, because they didn't start with the production gun cocked and locked. 

 

But if you use a 170 to Barney up with in production, welcome to open.

 

I think that is a stupid rule, but that is the way the rules are written. 

[MemphisMechanic]

2 minutes ago, bret said:

There is no bump to pcc

Repair your sarcasm detector.

It’s malfunctioning in the face of very obvious smartassery.  
 

Edited October 14, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[bret]

1 minute ago, MemphisMechanic said:

Repair your sarcasm detector.

It’s malfunctioning in the face of very obvious smartassery.  
 

Thanks but you never know here. 

[robchavous]

You have not started shooting yet, so if you correct it, before the timer goes off, what rule have you violated that would put you in open?
 
Correcting it before the timer going off and then a bump to Open, I would love to file a 3rd party arbitration on that.

Where in the rules does it say this rule only comes into effect "when you start shooting"? By my reading it says "during a course of fire" and the rulebook defines a course of fire as beginning at Make Ready.

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[B_RAD]

Did not read all the comments but I say option 3.

 

If the shooter had something negative to his score but hit approve, it would be too late to do anything about it.  Same should go for this.  

 

Though, if the shooter realized he had somewhat of an unfair advantage over the other prod shooters, and he volunteered to reshoot, I'd be ok with that. Though, that's kinda picking and choosing to enforce the rules or to not enforce. Which is not a good idea. Just saying. 

 

 

[bret]

Just now, robchavous said:

Where in the rules does it say this rule only comes into effect "when you start shooting"? By my reading it says "during a course of fire" and the rulebook defines a course of fire as beginning at Make Ready.

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At the make ready can I use a magazine with 11 rounds at the make ready on a loaded start in production? 

[bret]

1 minute ago, B_RAD said:

Did not read all the comments but I say option 3.

 

If the shooter had something negative to his score but hit approve, it would be too late to do anything about it.  Same should go for this.  

 

Though, if the shooter realized he had somewhat of an unfair advantage over the other prod shooters, and he volunteered to reshoot, I'd be ok with that. Though, that's kinda picking and choosing to enforce the rules or to not enforce. Which is not a good idea. Just saying. 

 

 

Scores can be corrected after the approve button has been hit.

[robchavous]

In this specific case Appendix D4 9 specifies maximum 10 rounds after the start signal. That uses different verbiage.

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[B_RAD]

5 minutes ago, bret said:

Scores can be corrected after the approve button has been hit.

Well,.... After I said that I started thinking more about it.and could see how he's get bumped to open or even a reshoot. My guess would be, it'd all depend on how well the RM knew the rules. I could see all several different outcomes based on who was running the show.  

 

Though, I don't know that, from memory, I agree that the score can be changed after the it's been approved. I'm wrong a lot so,.....maybe I'm wrong here too? Again, that could also depened on who's running the show and/or how good the competitor argues. 

 

It's like any other game/sport. Wrong calls get made and upheld from time to time. 

Edited October 14, 2019 by B_RAD