Shooting Below Walls

[MiWiAu]

The stage briefing says the “front wall is open from lower edge to ground.” Would the imaginary line where the wall intersects the ground be considered the fault line? i.e. Assuming no actual fault line is placed on the ground, would the shooter’s legs/feet/knees need to be completely behind the wall to avoid a procedural(s)? I looked in the rule book but couldn’t find a clear answer.

 

 

 

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[motosapiens]

They need to put a fault line there. Otherwise there is no way to tell when you are faulting and when you are not.

 

2.2.1.2 A 'shooting area' is defined as a surface inside shooting boxes, fault lines, walls, or any other barrier. Shooting boxes and fault lines must be fixed to the surface and may not be less than the minimum height required by rule 2.2.1.1

 

It doesn't say anything about allowing imaginary fault lines. I almost had to arb this at A3 a few years ago (and we would have won), but people came to their senses before I finished filling out the form.

[ChuckS]

This is how I did something similar for the first Sunday match. Setback defines the shooting area. Some just bent over, some went prone and some went brokeback prone

 

[waktasz]

No such thing as metric targets anymore  

[Flatland Shooter]

2 hours ago, waktasz said:

No such thing as metric targets anymore  

 

 I don't see any dates on the stage.

Possibly an older (pre-January) stage?

[MiWiAu]

Thanks for the replies. I assumed there would be a fault line at the match, but didn’t see one on the diagram. I’m relatively new to the sport and this will actually be my first time shooting a stage with a low position, so I figured I’d ask ahead of time.

Much appreciated!


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[MiWiAu]

 
 I don't see any dates on the stage.
Possibly an older (pre-January) stage?

Could be. It’s only my second time shooting with this org. Not sure exactly from where they pull their stage designs, but probably just reuse of an older stage design without update verbiage in the briefing.


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[Hi-Power Jack]

I'm not an RO, but if I were shooting that COF, I wouldn't stick any part of

my body through that port - stay on This side of the wall - just in case.

 

No real advantage (matter of fact, possibly slight disadvantage) to

sticking your body thru the wall.

[Joe4d]

There's no fault lines, At the buzzer take the left  target array, then combat roll under the wall, sweep the others left to right at point blank range.

[MiWiAu]

There's no fault lines, At the buzzer take the left  target array, then combat roll under the wall, sweep the others left to right at point blank range.

[emoji1787]


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[Hi-Power Jack]

9 hours ago, Joe4d said:

 take the left  targets, then combat roll under the wall, sweep the others  at point blank range.

 

Great advice Joe.     

 

You should learn how to insert   emoticons into your advice, though.    

 

If I were to give the advice you gave, I'd make the following changes :

 

    " Shoot left targets, roll under wall and shoot all other targets at point blank range. "    

 

Notice the "laughing face" emoticon - that tells newbies that this is an attempt at humor, and

NOT actual advice from someone who has a lot of experience shooting USPSA.          

 

Didja notice how an emoticon changes the message a little bit ?

[broadside72]

There seems to be one post that implies it is okay to go under and another that says otherwise. Then the rest is speculation or off topic.

 

So what is the ruling here? The WSB declares the bottom is open so without a fault line and the wall does not go to the ground, what rule(s) would you use to penalize a shooter that simple shoots the left and runs around the front? Or what interpretation of what rule and why?

 

The stage name is "Technicality"...

 

 

[waktasz]

2 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Great advice Joe.     

 

You should learn how to insert   emoticons into your advice, though.    

 

If I were to give the advice you gave, I'd make the following changes :

 

    " Shoot left targets, roll under wall and shoot all other targets at point blank range. "    

 

Notice the "laughing face" emoticon - that tells newbies that this is an attempt at humor, and

NOT actual advice from someone who has a lot of experience shooting USPSA.          

 

Didja notice how an emoticon changes the message a little bit ?

 

I bet you are fun at parties

[motosapiens]

28 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

There seems to be one post that implies it is okay to go under and another that says otherwise. Then the rest is speculation or off topic.

 

So what is the ruling here? The WSB declares the bottom is open so without a fault line and the wall does not go to the ground, what rule(s) would you use to penalize a shooter that simple shoots the left and runs around the front? Or what interpretation of what rule and why?

 

The stage name is "Technicality"...

 

 

i bet there will be a fault line on the ground at the actual match, even if someone forgot to put one in the diagram. A shooting area that is not enclosed doesn't even make sense.

[Hi-Power Jack]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

i bet there will be a fault line on the ground at the actual match, even if someone forgot to put one in the diagram. A shooting area that is not enclosed doesn't even make sense.

 

Moto, what woud YOU do if you were shooting that COF without a fault line ?

[broadside72]

 
Moto, what woud YOU do if you were shooting that COF without a fault line ?

Shoot the left targets from within the fault lines then run around to the front and from within the forward projection of the side fault lines shoot the rest from as far away as you want

[motosapiens]

Just now, Hi-Power Jack said:

 

Moto, what woud YOU do if you were shooting that COF without a fault line ?

 

If it was a local match, I'd  unf**k the stage before the match started (or ask the stage builder to fix it). That's part of my job as an experienced CRO. At every match at my local range, I check the stages for compliance with USPSA rules, and also with our particular range rules regarding target placement and height in a couple of bays.

 

If it were a major match I'd talk to the RM.

[broadside72]

 
If it was a local match, I'd  unf**k the stage before the match started (or ask the stage builder to fix it). That's part of my job as an experienced CRO. At every match at my local range, I check the stages for compliance with USPSA rules, and also with our particular range rules regarding target placement and height in a couple of bays.
 
If it were a major match I'd talk to the RM.

But what rule(s) would you cite to request a change from as-built?

[motosapiens]

3 minutes ago, broadside72 said:

6 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 
If it was a local match, I'd  unf**k the stage before the match started (or ask the stage builder to fix it). That's part of my job as an experienced CRO. At every match at my local range, I check the stages for compliance with USPSA rules, and also with our particular range rules regarding target placement and height in a couple of bays.
 
If it were a major match I'd talk to the RM.

But what rule(s) would you cite to request a change from as-built?

you think i need a specific rule that says a shooting area has to be enclosed? If I came across someone lame enough to argue that point I'd point to 2.2.1.2.

 

Fortunately, most of our stage designers are interested in doing things safely and legally, so I don't get much pushback.

Edited September 18, 2019 by motosapiens

[broadside72]

well there is a rule that allows no rear fault line and the berms are a default fault lines since you can't go up them. 

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, broadside72 said:

2 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

 
Moto, what woud YOU do if you were shooting that COF without a fault line ?

Shoot the left targets from within the fault lines then run around to the front and from within the forward projection of the side fault lines shoot the rest from as far away as you want

Fault lines only extend rearward to infinity if there is no rear fault line. No such thing as forward projection

[ChuckS]

It would be fun to see what everybody does but if the all the targets were 1/2 USPSA targets, it's an illegal stage!

[broadside72]

10 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Fault lines only extend rearward to infinity if there is no rear fault line. No such thing as forward projection

 

But the WSB says "from within the fault lines" and the definition of fault line is "A physical ground reference line in a course of fire which defines the limit(s) of the shooting area."

 

It does NOT say "from within the shooting area" which would include the projection to the ground from the wall in addition to the fault lines. So by being within the forward projection of the fault lines, I am sill "within the fault lines"...

 

Gamers gonna game

[Sarge]

Projection of fault lines is not a thing except as outlined in the rules.

2.2.1.3 Fault Lines extending rearward (uprange) should be a minimum of 3 feet in length, and unless otherwise stated in the written stage briefing, are deemed to extend rearward to infinity.

[broadside72]

Projection of fault lines is not a thing except as outlined in the rules.

2.2.1.3 Fault Lines extending rearward (uprange) should be a minimum of 3 feet in length, and unless otherwise stated in the written stage briefing, are deemed to extend rearward to infinity.

Then in this case what is "within the fault lines" when there is no fault line at the wall to constrain said "within"?

 

Had it said "within the shooting area" there would be no (or fewer) questions