Is there such a thing as an affordable open pistol?

[TrackCage]

3 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

<snip>

but I don't think if your not winning with a plastic grip changing to a metal one will change that. 

 

 

Isn't that true of pretty much any minor gear-related upgrade?

Edited August 21, 2019 by TrackCage

[Fo0]

it is true Tanfoglios dont have as much aftermarket items as 2011 if your looking to have a custom gun

but:

 

2011 grip is held on with 2 and a half screws (STI even has 2 fake screws on their plastic grip)

 

I think my Tanfoglio trigger is better than 2011

 

I like Tanfoglio assembly/disassembly better than 2011

 

2011 is a 1911 with 20 different grip/frame options to make it double stack

 

you can follow the top level sponsored shooters but only one person can win a match

Edited August 21, 2019 by Fo0

[MikeBurgess]

24 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

Isn't that true of pretty much any minor gear-related upgrade?

Yes, 100% true.  I just see so much you "need" X to be competitive spouted on here all the time,  I like to point out that X is usually very unlikely to make much if any real difference at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeBurgess]

3 minutes ago, Fo0 said:

it is true Tanfoglios dont have as much aftermarket items as 2011 if your looking to have a custom gun

but:

 

2011 grip is held on with 2 and a half screws

 

I think my Tanfoglio trigger is better than 2011

 

I like Tanfoglio assembly/disassembly better than 2011

 

2011 is a 1911 with 20 different grip/frame options to make it double stack

 

you can follow the top level sponsored shooters but only one person can win a match

My only issue with Tanfoglios (and I have a few) is the factory barrel comp setup is sub optimal for 9mm major and unnecessarily loud, they are probably better in IPSC with 160 PF major in open, and if you don't like the factory offering there are very few options to get something you may like better. I ended up making my own cone comp to get something that works the way I want. 

 

 

[Maximis228]

JJ was sponsored by Tanfo and still chose to shoot a limcat open gun when it really mattered. That speaks volumes.

[Fo0]

5 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

My only issue with Tanfoglios (and I have a few) is the factory barrel comp setup is sub optimal for 9mm major and unnecessarily loud, they are probably better in IPSC with 160 PF major in open, and if you don't like the factory offering there are very few options to get something you may like better. I ended up making my own cone comp to get something that works the way I want. 

 

 

 

Have you tried the Tanfoglio Domina

[Explosiveo]

Yes, 100% true.  I just see so much you "need" X to be competitive spouted on here all the time,  I like to point out that X is usually very unlikely to make much if any real difference at all. 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Ya. The biggest thing is that your equipment runs and you mentally believe it will not let you down. So you can 100% focus on the task at hand.

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[191138sc]

1 hour ago, zzt said:

If you are not locked into 9mm major, consider a good, used 40sw gun.

Gary Natale at Gans built my 40 Open. Took a loooong time to assemble all the parts and wait as worth it. 40 Open rocks!

[B_RAD]

41 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

Yes, 100% true.  I just see so much you "need" X to be competitive spouted on here all the time,  I like to point out that X is usually very unlikely to make much if any real difference at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In a division like open, I'd say X gear has more of an impact than Y gear. Meaning, yes skill is still the most important aspect but JJ will do better with X gear than he would with Y gear. 

 

So, if that's the case for a top level shooter, why wouldn't a lower level shooter want to have better equipment based on nothing but performance. Forget price for arguments sake. 

 

I personally think any solid shooter is going to have a better outcome in a match with an awesome 2011 open gun vs a budget/entry level 2011 open gun. I'm talking strictly equipment here. Assuming both are reliable.  

 

Now, for some reason, I don't think the gun has really any affect in production.. (for most popular modules). Comparing a Glock to a shadow 2 for instance. I shoot a G34 in CO.  Maybe that's my way of rationalizing it, IDK?

Edited August 21, 2019 by B_RAD

[chgofirefighter]

1 hour ago, 191138sc said:

Gary Natale at Gans built my 40 Open. Took a loooong time to assemble all the parts and wait as worth it. 40 Open rocks!

 

Thanks the major disadvantage of an open .40 caliber is their mag capacity.  You can load up to 29 rounds in a 170 mag give or take, whereas the .40 you can't.  For me it's easier to choose the 9mm option.  I already shoot limited in .40 with an STI Limited 

[Explosiveo]

Man. This .40 open nonsense was a real conversation killer.

Saying you shoot .40 open is like jumping in the room. Opening your trench coat and yelling "Let's get weird!"

But really. Please don't take that advice.

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[MikeBurgess]

2 hours ago, B_RAD said:

In a division like open, I'd say X gear has more of an impact than Y gear. Meaning, yes skill is still the most important aspect but JJ will do better with X gear than he would with Y gear. 

 

So, if that's the case for a top level shooter, why wouldn't a lower level shooter want to have better equipment based on nothing but performance. Forget price for arguments sake. 

 

I personally think any solid shooter is going to have a better outcome in a match with an awesome 2011 open gun vs a budget/entry level 2011 open gun. I'm talking strictly equipment here. Assuming both are reliable.  

 

Now, for some reason, I don't think the gun has really any affect in production.. (for most popular modules). Comparing a Glock to a shadow 2 for instance. I shoot a G34 in CO.  Maybe that's my way of rationalizing it, IDK?

So has JJ has torpedoed his possible performances with the Beretta? 

 

I believe there is a huge difference between "top shooter guy" likes gun "x" better than "y" and "top shooter guy" scores better with gun "x" than gun "y" I also believe that way too many people think that if "top shooter guy" uses gun "x" they have objectively tested it and found it to be better than gun "y" 

 

 

[Maximis228]

Buying an open 40 gun is like lighting $3K on fire.

 

There was a really dumb time in USPSA when 9 major wasn't super reliable and people didnt want to buy 38 super brass/constantly pick it up. So this weird 40 open gun was born out of laziness.

[TrackCage]

8 minutes ago, Maximis228 said:

Buying an open 40 gun is like lighting $3K on fire.

 

There was a really dumb time in USPSA when 9 major wasn't super reliable and people didnt want to buy 38 super brass/constantly pick it up. So this weird 40 open gun was born out of laziness.

I say we bring back 9x25

[Maximis228]

Just now, TrackCage said:

I say we bring back 9x25

Might as well bring back 175-180 PF as well

[caspian guy]

11 minutes ago, TrackCage said:

I say we bring back 9x25

Sorry... Been there done that... Got the pistol and the hearing damage to prove it (but God is that gun flat)

[gianmarko]

4 hours ago, B_RAD said:

 

I've shot the checzmate and it's not on the same level as the 2011, 

 

 

i agree. the CM is on a much higher level

 

jokes apart. there are tons of top shooters shooting non-2011 platforms and they still are top shooters. 

buying a steinway and sons grand piano will not make me a better piano player, and federed will kick my ass using a frying pan. 

any gun will do as long as it works reliably, 

then you need to throw lead dowrange. lots of it. the more the better. ammo money is the only good money spent. 

last year at the EEO a guy shooting production with a >plastic<  borrowed gun kicked hundreds of asses.  i saw him establishing a couple stage records.

shooting a UFO frame with an EPIC barrel, M-AZING compensator, who-O-O  springs and fail-0-matic red dot sight will not improve your shooting. 

 

 

 

[B_RAD]

24 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

So has JJ has torpedoed his possible performances with the Beretta? 

 

I believe there is a huge difference between "top shooter guy" likes gun "x" better than "y" and "top shooter guy" scores better with gun "x" than gun "y" I also believe that way too many people think that if "top shooter guy" uses gun "x" they have objectively tested it and found it to be better than gun "y" 

 

 

We're completely speculating here. Or at least I am. But I'd ask, why didn't he shoot a tanfo in open or limited?  Again, pure speculation here but I'd bet the Beretta will be more like the cz/tanfos.  

 

I'll be honest, I can't give a good reason why or what specifically it is that makes the 2011 seem to be better than the other options. I think(feel is probably more correct) the 2011 does everything better. More accurate, flatter, reloads are better. I mention the too guys because it makes sense to me that the top level of every type of competition, gravitate towards the equipment they feel is the best for their scores. I'm not recommending just blindly following the leader but that kinda makes more sense than blindly following the internet forum guy. 

 

Again, all this is just my opinion and how things make sense to me. 

[B_RAD]

9 minutes ago, gianmarko said:

i agree. the CM is on a much higher level

 

jokes apart. there are tons of top shooters shooting non-2011 platforms and they still are top shooters. 

buying a steinway and sons grand piano will not make me a better piano player, and federed will kick my ass using a frying pan. 

any gun will do as long as it works reliably, 

then you need to throw lead dowrange. lots of it. the more the better. ammo money is the only good money spent. 

last year at the EEO a guy shooting production with a >plastic<  borrowed gun kicked hundreds of asses.  i saw him establishing a couple stage records.

shooting a UFO frame with an EPIC barrel, M-AZING compensator, who-O-O  springs and fail-0-matic red dot sight will not improve your shooting. 

 

 

 

I'd say the piano argument isn't the same as gun. Though, I'd guess while that piano insnt going to make you play a song with more talent, it will make your level of talent sound better. 

 

And who are the top level shooters shooting non-2011's?

 

Again, I only mention "top level" becuse I think the "pros" at anything choose the best equipment.  Usually at least. Yes, the pro can still beat you with a frying pan. That's not the point.  The difference of how much more he'd beat you with his gear of choice is the point. 

 

 

Lastly, I'm not saying buying the new hotness is going to make a chump a champ. I'm just saying in some cases gear does make a difference. IMO, open is one of those. And I feel the 2011 is a better choice over the cz/tango platform based on the performance..  

Edited August 21, 2019 by B_RAD

[Fo0]

5 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

We're completely speculating here. Or at least I am. But I'd ask, why didn't he shoot a tanfo in open or limited?  Again, pure speculation here but I'd bet the Beretta will be more like the cz/tanfos.  

 

I'll be honest, I can't give a good reason why or what specifically it is that makes the 2011 seem to be better than the other options. I think(feel is probably more correct) the 2011 does everything better. More accurate, flatter, reloads are better. I mention the too guys because it makes sense to me that the top level of every type of competition, gravitate towards the equipment they feel is the best for their scores. I'm not recommending just blindly following the leader but that kinda makes more sense than blindly following the internet forum guy. 

 

Again, all this is just my opinion and how things make sense to me. 

 

look up what JJ won limited uspsa nationals with last year - almost positive it was a tanfoglio

[Maximis228]

1 minute ago, Fo0 said:

 

look up what JJ won limited uspsa nationals with last year - almost positive it was a tanfoglio

 

It was a borrowed Atlas 2011.

[B_RAD]

3 minutes ago, Fo0 said:

 

look up what JJ won limited uspsa nationals with last year - almost positive it was a tanfoglio

Nope. 

 

Again. Not saying that the gun is why he did or didn't win. You can't say that. Winning depends on how one person performs and how the competition does as well. There are several factors that could come into play. 

 

I'm just saying I feel top level guys usually choose the best equipment that they can choose from, within the rules. You see a trend in open. A trend doesn't mean everyone but maybe a majority. I see the 2011 being the trend/majority. And an expensive one. (to be relevant to the OP)

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by B_RAD

[Fo0]

sorry second in production

[gianmarko]

i totally disagree on the 2011 being better. is different, not better. 

 

the 2011 is based on a over 100 years design, that was introduced when >every gun< was hand fitted.

that era is gone and is not coming back, and gunsmiths are becoming scarce and expensive, at least around here.

what is the advantage of having a one-off, hand crafted, expensive gun? i cant see any. 

i can buy any spare for my CZ (or tanfo, or any other modern design), install it, and the gun will work fine,  only exception is obviously the barrel, but even that is within reach of an hobbyist. i have fitted my barrels and was not that hard

that is not true for the 2011 platform, where every part more or less has to be hand fitted else the gun will not work. seen that a lot. 

2011 slides are heavy, and slow. 

2011 has a taller bore line trhan other platforms

etc etc etc

other platforms will have their pros and cons. czechmates will regularly break slide locks, and occasionally a barrel lug, but still let you finish the stage. 

 

 

there is a guy around here who shoots really well. when i get 75% of his score, is a happy day. 

in the last 5 years he changed 3 platforms, and several models within same platform. his performance has not changed one bit from one platform to another. 

 

my advice is the same. get a good, cheap, lightly used open gun. plenty of them around. make sure it works. 

all the rest is irrelevant. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maximis228]

2 minutes ago, gianmarko said:

i totally disagree on the 2011 being better. is different, not better. 

 

the 2011 is based on a over 100 years design, that was introduced when >every gun< was hand fitted.

that era is gone and is not coming back, and gunsmiths are becoming scarce and expensive, at least around here.

 

Weird... there is about 3X the amount of custom 2011 smiths in my direct area than when I first started 6 years ago.

 

Half the amount of guys who work on CZs and Tanfos in the same time frame.