Is there such a thing as an affordable open pistol?

[echotango]

10 minutes ago, gianmarko said:

i totally disagree on the 2011 being better. is different, not better. 

 

the 2011 is based on a over 100 years design, that was introduced when >every gun< was hand fitted.

that era is gone and is not coming back, and gunsmiths are becoming scarce and expensive, at least around here.

Scarce?  Really?  I have not seen a lot of Non-2011 Gunsmiths offering open guns pop up lately.  

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what is the advantage of having a one-off, hand crafted, expensive gun? i cant see any. 

Not one off.  they all use the same parts. If I break a safety or whatever,, I can order one and have it here tomorrow. 

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i can buy any spare for my CZ (or tanfo, or any other modern design), install it, and the gun will work fine,  only exception is obviously the barrel, but even that is within reach of an hobbyist. i have fitted my barrels and was not that hard

that is not true for the 2011 platform, where every part more or less has to be hand fitted else the gun will not work. seen that a lot. 

2011 slides are heavy, and slow. 

hhmmm.  8.4-10.5oz doesn't seem that heavy.

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2011 has a taller bore line trhan other platforms

by how much? 0.25"?  irrelevant. 

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etc etc etc

other platforms will have their pros and cons. czechmates will regularly break slide locks, and occasionally a barrel lug, but still let you finish the stage. 

 

 

there is a guy around here who shoots really well. when i get 75% of his score, is a happy day. 

in the last 5 years he changed 3 platforms, and several models within same platform. his performance has not changed one bit from one platform to another. 

just because one person changes platforms does not mean it is bad in the first place.  Some people change stuff just to change stuff.

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my advice is the same. get a good, cheap, lightly used open gun. plenty of them around. make sure it works. 

all the rest is irrelevant. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by echotango

[B_RAD]

11 minutes ago, gianmarko said:

i totally disagree on the 2011 being better. is different, not better. 

 

the 2011 is based on a over 100 years design, that was introduced when >every gun< was hand fitted.

that era is gone and is not coming back, and gunsmiths are becoming scarce and expensive, at least around here.

what is the advantage of having a one-off, hand crafted, expensive gun? i cant see any. 

i can buy any spare for my CZ (or tanfo, or any other modern design), install it, and the gun will work fine,  only exception is obviously the barrel, but even that is within reach of an hobbyist. i have fitted my barrels and was not that hard

that is not true for the 2011 platform, where every part more or less has to be hand fitted else the gun will not work. seen that a lot. 

2011 slides are heavy, and slow. 

2011 has a taller bore line trhan other platforms

etc etc etc

other platforms will have their pros and cons. czechmates will regularly break slide locks, and occasionally a barrel lug, but still let you finish the stage. 

 

 

there is a guy around here who shoots really well. when i get 75% of his score, is a happy day. 

in the last 5 years he changed 3 platforms, and several models within same platform. his performance has not changed one bit from one platform to another. 

 

my advice is the same. get a good, cheap, lightly used open gun. plenty of them around. make sure it works. 

all the rest is irrelevant. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The age of the design, the ease of fitting parts, the guy around you, all have zero to do with how well a gun of any kind performs. 

[TONY BARONE]

Love my Limcat plastic grip.

[MikeBurgess]

22 minutes ago, B_RAD said:

I'd say the piano argument isn't the same as gun. Though, I'd guess while that piano insnt going to make you play a song with more talent, it will make your level of talent sound better. 

 

And who are the top level shooters shooting non-2011's?

 

Again, I only mention "top level" becuse I think the "pros" at anything choose the best equipment.  Usually at least. Yes, the pro can still beat you with a frying pan. That's not the point.  The difference of how much more he'd beat you with his gear of choice is the point. 

 

 

Lastly, I'm not saying buying the new hotness is going to make a chump a champ. I'm just saying in some cases gear does make a difference. IMO, open is one of those. And I feel the 2011 is a better choice over the cz/tango platform based on the performance..  

I too believe the 1911 platform (2011, caspian hicap, Para/RIA is better than the other current options on the market. the way the barrel stops on the frame rather than the slide stop pin is much better, the availability of parts and smiths familiar with the platform is also far and away better.  

 

The argument I was making is you would be hard pressed to convince me that a STI True-bore with a 90deg C-more is in anyway giving up match points to a SV IMM with a steel grip that costs $5+k more.

 

remember the gun only affects stage times in very small fractions of a second here and there, a heavy gun is more stable so you can probably shoot further targets with a bit more confidence, light guns can transition faster and stop quicker so on closer targets they can be an advantage. 

[gianmarko]

10 hours ago, echotango said:

Scarce?  Really?  I have not seen a lot of Non-2011 Gunsmiths offering open guns pop up lately.  

Not one off.  they all use the same parts. If I break a safety or whatever,, I can order one and have it here tomorrow. 

hhmmm.  8.4-10.5oz doesn't seem that heavy.

by how much? 0.25"?  irrelevant. 

just because one person changes platforms does not mean it is bad in the first place.  Some people change stuff just to change stuff.

 

in the order:

- non 2011 gunsmiths do not exist as the non 2011 platforms do not need to be rebuilt in order to work
jokes apart, non 2011 tend to work out of the box. 2011 always seem to need some adjustements. but what i meant is that in general,  there are less gunsmiths around. at least, on this side of the pond. 

 

- they all use the same parts but there are infinite combinations apparently. i am not sure i have ever seen two identical 2011 based guns. of course i am not saying it would not be possible, but it seems not so common. not saying it is good or bad, just what i see. 
personally, i see an advantage in running a bog standard gun. i shot a couple matches with a borrowed/rented CM and it really felt like i was shooting my own guns. but that is just me. 

 

- slide weight and bore height. yes, exactly. that was my point. there are differences between different platforms and even between different models of same platform, but the idea that one is so better than the other that it justifies investing huge sums is an illusion, imho. on paper, taller bore line and slide weight should be a disadvantage. matches results do not show that. 

 

- yes exactly. the people i see changing platform is mostly because they got a better deal from the suppliers, and their performances did not show and visible change

 

so i pedantically repeat

get any used gun in the 2k range from a reputable manufacturer, and that it works reliably. the idea that getting a 2011 rather than another platform will make a newcomer a better shooter is very questionable. 

use the other 2k to buy ammo, that is a good investment. 

 

i got my second CM used. it had 5k minor rounds through it (i knew the owner) and got it for about half price as new, still in the original box, 2 spare barrels and all other spares. and btw, the old owner did not get a 2011. he briefly tried production division, then bought another chechmate. 

 

 

[SWprotected]

21 hours ago, chgofirefighter said:

While I may have a good career and income, I can't see myself spending 6k in an open gun, let alone a custom build one.  Is there such a thing as an "affordable" open pistol?  Right now I am looking to dive into the Open Division, I've been shooting CO for 2 years and it's time for a change.  So far I've looked into the pre owned market but I don't like the fact that a previous firearm may have been abused and not truly cared for.  Plus the fact that you don't truly know how many rounds the barrel has or whatever other issues it may have.  My budget right now is under 4k, preferably $3500 give or take, STI DVC O cost me about $3400 directlly from STI due to my discount and I've also looked into the CZ Czchmate option for around $2700.  I already shoot a CZ Shadow 2 in the CO division so I'm familiar with STI's but I had a friend who used to own one and he decided to sell it and go for a 2011 instead.  So I don't truly know what that means but ever since he got a custom 2011 gun made he has encountered nothing but issues when his CZ had none...  I've also looked in the SPS Vista Pantera 2011 which cost about 2k but there isn't much info out there on it...

 

Any other recommendations?  I already have an open holster from DAA and a few shooting rigs so that's covered.  Just need the pistol, mags and I'm diving in!!  So what do you guys recommend or advise me to do or look at?  

 

To answer you question yes. With a $4000 budget you can buy a pretty nice open gun. I bought my first one right here on the classifieds for 3700 with 3 mags. It was a Limcat that was in excellent condition. Open is not an inexpensive game any way you look at it, but you don't have to buy a brand new custom gun to play either. If instant gratification is what you seek you will either buy a gun that is sub par, or spend more than your budget to get a nice new gun. If you are patient and keep your eyes open good deals come up pretty frequently.

 

As far as platforms go I shoot 2011s but I do know some guys who use CZs and Tanfos, they both work as well. I think you have more options with the 2011s and in the U.S. you will find more support and parts availability for them. 

[Silverscooby27]

Any pistol can be used in open division, therefore, yes, there are a lot of affordable open guns

[Balakay]

6 hours ago, SWprotected said:

 

To answer you question yes. With a $4000 budget you can buy a pretty nice open gun.

Here's a really nice one. no relation to seller.  Lots of deals to be had in that price range

[scooterj]

The CKARMS Solution starts at $2750 but upgrades are available 

[191138sc]

23 hours ago, chgofirefighter said:

Thanks the major disadvantage of an open .40 caliber is their mag capacity

Hello,

I can get 25 rounds in my 170 MM MBX and 26 with the Barney. Yes, 26 is smaller than 29. Most field course's are 32 rounds that require all to reload at some point. Where I have to reload unlike the 29 round guys is a 28 round course of fire. In this case, it is not hard to find a good place to reload while on the move. Does this cost me a few tenths of second? Yep, it sure does, but find that is not the make or break issue to win or lose a stage.

[Maximis228]

29 minutes ago, 191138sc said:

Hello,

I can get 25 rounds in my 170 MM MBX and 26 with the Barney. Yes, 26 is smaller than 29. Most field course's are 32 rounds that require all to reload at some point. Where I have to reload unlike the 29 round guys is a 28 round course of fire. In this case, it is not hard to find a good place to reload while on the move. Does this cost me a few tenths of second? Yep, it sure does, but find that is not the make or break issue to win or lose a stage.

 

I can't even count the amount of times I shoot 4 shots and reloaded to a big stick for a 32 round field course at majors. It happens constantly and is a HUGE help. You cant do this with a 40 set up. Not to mention plenty of stages in the 27-31 round range where no reloads are needed at all.

Edited August 22, 2019 by Maximis228

[Balakay]

27 minutes ago, 191138sc said:

Hello,

I can get 25 rounds in my 170 MM MBX and 26 with the Barney. Yes, 26 is smaller than 29. Most field course's are 32 rounds that require all to reload at some point. Where I have to reload unlike the 29 round guys is a 28 round course of fire. In this case, it is not hard to find a good place to reload while on the move. Does this cost me a few tenths of second? Yep, it sure does, but find that is not the make or break issue to win or lose a stage.

c'mon man.  40 Open. just. stop.  But you are probably right that .40 is not keeping Super Senior C-class Open shooters from winning stages

[gianmarko]

.40 open major is surely possible, but at least around here, would be horrendously expensive for training. all brass would have to be new. 

[zzt]

119838sc, my MBX 170 held 26 reloadable.  99.9% of the people dissing 40 Open have never shot it.  It is easier to load for, shoots softer and has no disadvantages other than mag capacity and bullet cost.  I shot 40 Open for years. 26 is not a disadvantage, because there are always spots to reload without costing any time.  The naysayers don't buy it because they are mentally hung up on mag capacity.

 

In 9mm Open I run 155s and 170s.  So that's 26 and 29 rounds reloadable.  Unlike 40, the 170 does not get constant use.  On longer stages I run with the 155s and reload on the run.  I'll use the 170 on 22-24 round stages where I an absolutely sure I can get through without a mag change.  That is exactly how the M Open shooters I squad with do it.  That being said, at the clubs I shoot all the stages require running (except Classifiers).  There are no stand and hose stages.

 

I went from Limited to Open when my eyes forced the issue.  Several friends told me 9mm was a pain to reload for, had ejection problems and went kaboob.  So I found a good, somewhat reasonably priced custom 40 and bought it.  I have no regrets.  I later bought a backup for it.  While I was shooting 40 Open I watched all the other Open shooters.  First there were a few 9mm. Then there were more and more.  There were no kabooms and the only people having ejection problems were running vertical frame mounts with Sliderides.  So all the 38 Super fear mongers and the hangers on were wrong.

 

When I decided to build two new Open guns I went 9mm.  Yes loading for them is not as easy as 40, but no where near the sob stories I got previously.  Case capacity is a problem, but not insurmountable.  So having shot major and minor in both extensively, I can say two things with authority.  With identical setups and PF, 40 shoots a lot softer than 9mm.  40sw bullets cost more than 9mm.  That's it.  Mag capacity?  Rubbish, at least where I shoot.  I can count exactly one time 29 in a mag would have let me run a more efficient stage plan.

 

I'm sticking with 9mm now, just because of how much I have invested in two full custom guns (with a third coming).  I would not dissuade a new Open shooter from 40 if the found a nice gun and that's how they wanted to go.  All the naysayers who never shot 40 Open but voice all these strong opinions are just talking out of their nether regions.  Just hold your nose and more on to the next post.

Edited August 22, 2019 by zzt

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Balakay said:

c'mon man.  40 Open. just. stop.  But you are probably right that .40 is not keeping Super Senior C-class Open shooters from winning stages

 

You have no idea what you are talking about.  Have you ever shot 40 Open in a match?

[RJH]

On 8/21/2019 at 9:16 AM, chgofirefighter said:

While I may have a good career and income, I can't see myself spending 6k in an open gun, let alone a custom build one.  Is there such a thing as an "affordable" open pistol?  Right now I am looking to dive into the Open Division, I've been shooting CO for 2 years and it's time for a change.  So far I've looked into the pre owned market but I don't like the fact that a previous firearm may have been abused and not truly cared for.  Plus the fact that you don't truly know how many rounds the barrel has or whatever other issues it may have.  My budget right now is under 4k, preferably $3500 give or take, STI DVC O cost me about $3400 directlly from STI due to my discount and I've also looked into the CZ Czchmate option for around $2700.  I already shoot a CZ Shadow 2 in the CO division so I'm familiar with STI's but I had a friend who used to own one and he decided to sell it and go for a 2011 instead.  So I don't truly know what that means but ever since he got a custom 2011 gun made he has encountered nothing but issues when his CZ had none...  I've also looked in the SPS Vista Pantera 2011 which cost about 2k but there isn't much info out there on it...

 

Any other recommendations?  I already have an open holster from DAA and a few shooting rigs so that's covered.  Just need the pistol, mags and I'm diving in!!  So what do you guys recommend or advise me to do or look at?  

 

 IMO:

 

Personally i would skip the used open gun, unless you have seen it run and have a good idea of a true round count that is not real high. 

 

The CK solution or an STI DVC seem to be the closest to your price in the new category and if there are issues you will have factory support, and i doubt that they will hold you back and as time goes by you can upgrade the grip, etc. if you feel it is necessary.

 

  I would probably skip the CZ guns cause there seems to be less people that work on  them in the US  and you cant really change the grip etc on them, so unless you like them for sure as is, go 2011

 

Plastic and 40 open guns; unless you are just planning on goofing off, skip them.  They can both be fine, but if you are very serious at all about shooting open go 2011 in 9mm or 38SC

 

 

[Balakay]

3 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

You have no idea what you are talking about.  Have you ever shot 40 Open in a match?

No idea, hmmm. Educate me....

 

1.  The utilization of .40 in Open is low single digits at best

2.  Super Senior C-class open shooters are not winning stages at matches with .40, 38, or 9 so it really doesn't matter what caliber they choose. 

 

Am I wrong on those 2 points, the only points made in my post??  I think not

[zzt]

1 hour ago, Balakay said:

c'mon man.  40 Open. just. stop

 

Really?  That's all you said?  Explosivo is in the same boat.

Edited August 22, 2019 by zzt

[Balakay]

7 minutes ago, zzt said:

 

Really?  That's all you said?  Explosivo is in the same boat.

And your point is what exactly?  That you personally enjoy 40 Open, therefore it is a viable option to be recommended to a new shooter looking to start in Open?

As I said C'mon man.  

[Explosiveo]

 
Really?  That's all you said?  Explosivo is in the same boat.

Hahaha. Why not shoot .45 open. Wouldn't that be 5 better? You can reload right?

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk

[gianmarko]

10 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

 

  I would probably skip the CZ guns cause there seems to be less people that work on  them in the US  and you cant really change the grip etc on them, so unless you like them for sure as is, go 2011

 

 

 

 

with all due respect, perhaps because there is no need to work on them?
CZ guns just work. and work. and work. all malfunctions i had with this gun turned up to be:
- bad ammo (my fault)
- "improvements" (my fault)

so i actually see the lack of aftermarket parts as an advantage. less chances to ruin a perfectly working gun. 

 

one slide stop every 7-8000 rounds will break. no big deal. they are cheap enough, and the gun will work fine through several stages even with a broken pin

true, barrels >might< break

allegedly new style barrels should not break. but even assuming they do, which is very probable, they last between 20 and 40k rounds so not really an every day problem. we just consider barrels a consumable. the gun still works with a broken barrel, will just not cycle every 2 or 3 rounds. 

since 5 years i always train with a guy who shoots STI
STIs work fine, until they dont. he has at least 4 times more malfunctions than me. but is a STI so it doesnt matter, because is it "better"...

but i have already seen him completely ruin a match due to mechanical problems. 

now my question is, do people buy open gusn to shoot in open division, or to spend tons of money and time  continuosly changing  and tuning parts  in the hope to improve stage results?

i also went through that phase unfortunately.  still do some experiments every now and then. 
but my match gun is absolutely standard, no modifications whatsoever. and havent had a malfunction since months. 

2011 have several good things going for them. one is that they really are built like a tank. so really no reason not to consider a good 2nd hand. 

 

[2Xalpha]

Eric Grauffel has 5 World Shoot titles in Open Overall, I believe all shooting Tanfoglio. It's good enough for him.  

[RJH]

3 hours ago, gianmarko said:

with all due respect, perhaps because there is no need to work on them?
CZ guns just work. and work. and work. all malfunctions i had with this gun turned up to be:
- bad ammo (my fault)
- "improvements" (my fault)

so i actually see the lack of aftermarket parts as an advantage. less chances to ruin a perfectly working gun. 

 

one slide stop every 7-8000 rounds will break. no big deal. they are cheap enough, and the gun will work fine through several stages even with a broken pin

true, barrels >might< break

allegedly new style barrels should not break. but even assuming they do, which is very probable, they last between 20 and 40k rounds so not really an every day problem. we just consider barrels a consumable. the gun still works with a broken barrel, will just not cycle every 2 or 3 rounds. 

since 5 years i always train with a guy who shoots STI
STIs work fine, until they dont. he has at least 4 times more malfunctions than me. but is a STI so it doesnt matter, because is it "better"...

but i have already seen him completely ruin a match due to mechanical problems. 

now my question is, do people buy open gusn to shoot in open division, or to spend tons of money and time  continuosly changing  and tuning parts  in the hope to improve stage results?

i also went through that phase unfortunately.  still do some experiments every now and then. 
but my match gun is absolutely standard, no modifications whatsoever. and havent had a malfunction since months. 

2011 have several good things going for them. one is that they really are built like a tank. so really no reason not to consider a good 2nd hand. 

 

 

Kinda my point, when the barrel breaks you will have less people to send it to.   Don't like the grip, other than panels, you just have to deal with it.  How many slide length options are there?

How many frame lengths are there?  Is the weight of the gun as adjustable as a 2011? Can you change the grip completely?   Can you change the reach for the trigger?  I honestly don't the answer to some of those questions on the CZ, but on a 2011 you can fit it till your heart is content

 

The CZ type guns are not bad, but from what i have seen they have less people who work on them, and less options for fit.  Most people tend to prefer the straight pull trigger vs the hinge type.  And having guns that break slide stops and barrels fairly consistently is not a mark of reliability, more of a design flaw that would probably be considered a mechanical problem that would ruin a match.  Not saying a 2011 is perfect, just generally cnsidered the best there is for open right now

 

I know plenty of people who's 2011 run great and and some who's guns never seem to work.  I generally believe the tinkerers are the ones who's guns are going to have the most problems regardless of gun type.  

 

I am not trying to sell anyone anything or justify my purchase (i don't shoot a 2011 in open), but if the OP wants to shoot open seriously, a 2011 will be where he ends up, so he will save himself time and money starting there

[gianmarko]

17 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

Kinda my point, when the barrel breaks you will have less people to send it to.   Don't like the grip, other than panels, you just have to deal with it.  How many slide length options are there?

How many frame lengths are there?  Is the weight of the gun as adjustable as a 2011? Can you change the grip completely?   Can you change the reach for the trigger?  I honestly don't the answer to some of those questions on the CZ, but on a 2011 you can fit it till your heart is content

 

The CZ type guns are not bad, but from what i have seen they have less people who work on them, and less options for fit.  Most people tend to prefer the straight pull trigger vs the hinge type.  And having guns that break slide stops and barrels fairly consistently is not a mark of reliability, more of a design flaw that would probably be considered a mechanical problem that would ruin a match.  Not saying a 2011 is perfect, just generally cnsidered the best there is for open right now

 

I know plenty of people who's 2011 run great and and some who's guns never seem to work.  I generally believe the tinkerers are the ones who's guns are going to have the most problems regardless of gun type.  

 

I am not trying to sell anyone anything or justify my purchase (i don't shoot a 2011 in open), but if the OP wants to shoot open seriously, a 2011 will be where he ends up, so he will save himself time and money starting there

well, fitting a new barrel is a job any half decent hobbyist can do, its easier than a trigger job, so any gunsmith or machinist who know how it should be done can do it. i fit my own barrels and im no machinist.
 

there 1 frame length, 1 slide and barrel lenght, 1 weight,  and adjustability is limited to the trigger post travel. 
but honestly, i never felt the need to change any of the above, and same goes for all the guys who shoot CZ and similCZ guns, who are quite a lot, in all the various divisions.

 

 

then, some people might like to have different options, and thats ok.

 

but i would not consider a CZ an inferior gun just because is not possible to tinker with it. 

 

over here BUL guns are becoming very popular. they are 2011 type guns, but factory ready to shoot. you buy them, load them, shoot them. no tinkering needed, no trips to the gunsmith, no endless parts swapping trying to find reliability or the elusive stage gain. they are very well made, machining is fantastic, and for what i can see, very very reliable.  trigger is the best i have ever seen. and they are not even expensive.  

 

BUL shows that it is possible to build a 2011 platform that is good to go out of the box, and the day i decide to sell my CZs, ill get Bul. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[B_RAD]

5 hours ago, gianmarko said:

with all due respect, perhaps because there is no need to work on them?
CZ guns just work. and work. and work. all malfunctions i had with this gun turned up to be:
- bad ammo (my fault)
- "improvements" (my fault)

so i actually see the lack of aftermarket parts as an advantage. less chances to ruin a perfectly working gun. 

 

one slide stop every 7-8000 rounds will break. no big deal. they are cheap enough, and the gun will work fine through several stages even with a broken pin

true, barrels >might< break

allegedly new style barrels should not break. but even assuming they do, which is very probable, they last between 20 and 40k rounds so not really an every day problem. we just consider barrels a consumable. the gun still works with a broken barrel, will just not cycle every 2 or 3 rounds. 

since 5 years i always train with a guy who shoots STI
STIs work fine, until they dont. he has at least 4 times more malfunctions than me. but is a STI so it doesnt matter, because is it "better"...

but i have already seen him completely ruin a match due to mechanical problems. 

now my question is, do people buy open gusn to shoot in open division, or to spend tons of money and time  continuosly changing  and tuning parts  in the hope to improve stage results?

i also went through that phase unfortunately.  still do some experiments every now and then. 
but my match gun is absolutely standard, no modifications whatsoever. and havent had a malfunction since months. 

2011 have several good things going for them. one is that they really are built like a tank. so really no reason not to consider a good 2nd hand. 

 

Do they work work work and work or do they break slide stops and barrels every 7k?

 

 

I've seen some CZ's that choked choked and choked. From what I was told it was an issue the mags?  IDK.  Just saying they're not always .  Like anything. I will say they work out of the a lot more than a 2011 does.  

 

 

 

 

Anyone trying to say the CZ is equal to a top shelf 2011 is either trying to convince themselves their purchase was a good one or they don't know.  The CZ's are good but......

 

30 minutes ago, gianmarko said:

well, fitting a new barrel is a job any half decent hobbyist can do, its easier than a trigger job, so any gunsmith or machinist who know how it should be done can do it. i fit my own barrels and im no machinist.
 

there 1 frame length, 1 slide and barrel lenght, 1 weight,  and adjustability is limited to the trigger post travel. 
but honestly, i never felt the need to change any of the above, and same goes for all the guys who shoot CZ and similCZ guns, who are quite a lot, in all the various divisions.

 

 

then, some people might like to have different options, and thats ok.

 

but i would not consider a CZ an inferior gun just because is not possible to tinker with it. 

 

over here BUL guns are becoming very popular. they are 2011 type guns, but factory ready to shoot. you buy them, load them, shoot them. no tinkering needed, no trips to the gunsmith, no endless parts swapping trying to find reliability or the elusive stage gain. they are very well made, machining is fantastic, and for what i can see, very very reliable.  trigger is the best i have ever seen. and they are not even expensive.  

 

BUL shows that it is possible to build a 2011 platform that is good to go out of the box, and the day i decide to sell my CZs, ill get Bul. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like you're agreeing that the 2011 is better? Or you like it more?  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok Ok.  I'll admit.... It's all just opinions.  But the 2011 does just seem to do everything better!

 

 

but again, to answer the OP's question, I'd say no. There's not am affordable option.  They're all pretty darn expensive.  You gotta just make peace with it.  

Edited August 23, 2019 by B_RAD