Mall Ninjas

[SiG Lady]

The real "bad habit" is not getting any training and not practicing enough. One of my defense instructor friends indicated recently that some of the LEOs and so-called security people that come to his classes are so badly 'trained' (if that's even the correct word) that they're actually a DANGER to have on the range until they're taught proper basic gun handling!!!... let alone accuracy, etc.

[folsoml]

The real "bad habit" is not getting any training and not practicing enough.  One of my defense instructor friends indicated recently that some of the LEOs and so-called security people that come to his classes are so badly 'trained' (if that's even the correct word) that they're actually a DANGER to have on the range until they're taught proper basic gun handling!!!... let alone accuracy, etc.    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't even get me started. I could tell you stories so crazy you wouldn't believe them. Let's just say, many of them are horrible.

I'm struggling to see how practicing shooting fast and accurate, clearing malfunctions, reloading under stress, and discretionary shooting can be against our training.

Edited September 15, 2005 by folsoml

[GuildSF4]

I've seen TGO training a bunch of Military types on several occasions...

PS- If it was for real... most of us would rather back off and call in a air strike (if possible) and we wouldn't have timers... (or RO's or be concerned about the 180...)

[Ted Murphy]

I hate having burned through a stage (or match for that matter) and having the new guy/gal (even some experienced competitors) come up to me and say....... "Nice run/match...........BUT....... doing that in the REAL WORLD will get you killed"

Chipmunks are a hoot.

One of the BTDT guys at my club said of one such mouthpiece, "nice vest, shame some punk is going to shoot him in the back of the head at a 7-11 one night".

Maybe I'll rig up am MP-3 player and pipe it into a set of ear muffs and just continue to smile and say "thanks" of course I could allways just get to "rule book slapping too" 

Good idea. I'm getting one for next year's season. I'm often squadded at non IDPA matches with this one guy I cannot stand and really want to be able to tune him out if I have to put up with him again. Cheating bastard.

Ted

[p99shooter]

I can't debate, so I'll phrase it like a hate:

I hate that fact that a lot of people don't realize that some clubs, especially mine, draw a lot of local law enforcement officers. Some of these officers will never make Master, but they shoot CoFs the way they have been trained, which usually is not the fastest way. Consider that someone who makes a comment about something not being "tactically correct" might be trying to provide you with constructive criticism, in the, god forbid, chance that you end up in a real gunfight.

Case in point: About a year ago, we had a stage that involved dragging a dummy horizontally across the bay. Most shooters, playing the game, simply grabbed the dummy, which weighed less than 10 lbs, in one hand and ran across the bay.

A police officer that shot the stage made his weapon safe, re-holstered, and carried the dummy across the bay using a fireman's under-arm carry. Did he finish at the bottom of the stage results? You bet! Did he do it the right way? Answer that yourself.

Another case: A couse of fire that requires moving between positions of cover, and firing only 10 rounds. An SSP shooter can complete the course without reloading...but, several people (including myself) did a RWR before leaving the first position of cover.

Now, if someone repeatedly gives you advice you don't want, then slap them with the rulebook. But, please consider that not everyone that tries to give you tactics advice is a "mall ninja."

[XRe]

I've also seen folks come and shoot in a fashion designed to be more useful of cover, etc. I don't have a problem with anyone coming and playing the game any way they want to, and using it for whatever training they want to.

What *I* have a problem with are the asshats who won't afford me the same courtesy, who call me a cheater because of the (division legal) gear I choose to use, malign my choice of equipment, and otherwise make themselves out to be asshats.

...and.... saying

I can't debate, so I'll phrase it like a hate:

just means you know you're not supposed to debate in a hate thread, but you're going to do it anyway.... Edited September 16, 2005 by XRe

[Ted Murphy]

Now, if someone repeatedly gives you advice you don't want, then slap them with the rulebook. But, please consider that not everyone that tries to give you tactics advice is a "mall ninja."

But they all are people with no manners offering unsolited opinions.

TEd

[John Dunn]

Zesty!

[George]

The rules of any speed shooting game are pretty simple, he who makes the best hits the fastest,

wins PERIOD

Usually pretty true in any other type of shooting situation too ;-)

--

Regards,

[p99shooter]

People that chastise you for playing the game the way you want to play it deserve all the disdain we can heap on them.

My point was that not everyone who makes a comment about "tactics" is trying to give you a hard time. That's all.

[iweiny]

Perhaps it is the tone of voice and the "way" some of these things are said?

Ira

[p99shooter]

I don't feel that I've taken an antagonistic tone. Maybe I've got a lost cause in trying to defend "these people," but just because some shooters play the game to win doesn't mean other ways of playing the game are invalid (as long as you're safe about it).

I have also seen shooters purposefully take procedural penalties because they did something that they felt was correct, according to their previous training. They are playing the game too, their way. As long as they aren't trying to impose their will upon you, I don't have a problem with it.

[George]

I too know/knew a couple folks over the years who shot our local USPSA matches using department training techniques and no one at our club ever gave them shjt over that except in a good natured way followed with a well meant "damn good for you my friend". I really don't understand anyone eschewing anything someone else can articulate a solid reason for. Telling the difference between solid reasoning coupled with solid training and 'handmedown' dogma is pretty easy on the range ;-)

BTW, these guys usually shot solid snake eye pairs of shots right were they wanted them and didn't place that far down either when all was said and done. A good shooter, is a good shooter pretty much 100% of the time no matter what game you play.

--

Regards,

[zhunter]

I have also seen shooters purposefully take procedural penalties because they did something that they felt was correct, according to their previous training. They are playing the game too, their way. As long as they aren't trying to impose their will upon you, I don't have a problem with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I believe the whole point of this thread was the fact that "THEY" are trying to impose their will, otherwise "THEY" would just keep their thoughts to themselves on how others choose to shoot the course in playing the game the way it was set-up within the rules.

[folsoml]

Freestyle means freestyle. I guess if they want to use their trained tactics, they can. But then the same can be said back to them when they criticize you for not using "their" tactics.

I have yet to have a problem separating my game from my reality. The change in costumes is usually enough to remind me which I am doing. The one thing that doesn't change is that I'm playing to win either way.

[davidwiz]

The real "bad habit" is not getting any training and not practicing enough.  One of my defense instructor friends indicated recently that some of the LEOs and so-called security people that come to his classes are so badly 'trained' (if that's even the correct word) that they're actually a DANGER to have on the range until they're taught proper basic gun handling!!!... let alone accuracy, etc.    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My gf works for a federal agency and she says the gun handling skills of most of her co-workers is horrible, extremely unsafe.

[zhunter]

My gf works for a federal agency and she says the gun handling skills of most of her co-workers is horrible, extremely unsafe.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Big Surprise! NOT

I was on vacation this year, and befriended a LEO fro the Northeastern portion of the US. He flat out admitted, he shoots twice a year, for qualification purposes ONLY!

[Schutzenmeister]

I shot an IPSC/USPSA match recently where one of the new competitors was going through every COF putting three shots on every target (two in the lower A, one in the upper A if you know what I mean).  To his credit, he was a good enough shot to actually do it, but his times were hella slow.  He would finish each stage with this look of pride and explain to the rest of us that "that was how it should be done" while praising all of the "real world" training he was getting by doing it that way.  I guess I'll just never understand that mindset in a grown man.

John

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John

Just a thought ... and I know several of the folks reading this thread will cringe at the suggestion, but here goes.

Set up a couple of CoFs with Classic (= Turtle) targets. Then sit back and LYAO watching the above gentleman trying to find the "head" of the target in order to place his third round!

[folsoml]

I was on vacation this year, and befriended a LEO fro the Northeastern portion of the US.  He flat out admitted, he shoots twice a year, for qualification purposes ONLY!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I seen people show up tp the range who have not TAKEN THEIR GUN OUT OF THE HOLSTER since they qualified last year (required once a year with my office). Anyone who assumes cops are "gun people" by the nature of their jobs is in denial. Countless times I've been called to scenes where my fellow deputies needed help clearing very common types of guns.

[Loves2Shoot]

I hate that people think all cops should be good shooters. Most of them just push papers, or write tickets. I know several who don't even like guns. But then again some of the best shooters I know are police.

I hate that we can't afford to pay cops to learn how to shoot and to give them enough $$$ to have them shoot regularly because we are spending so much $$$ on healthcare for illegals (I work for a hospital) and housing people in jails who should be put on an island somewhere and left to fend for themselves, or hung.

I hate that some people think owning a gun makes you an expert on their use, and camo, a flashlight, or (especialy) lasers make you TACTICAL.

I hate that some people think IPSC is SWAT training.

I hate that I have to pay money to the goverment to have full auto or supressed guns

And I hate MALL NINJAs giving decent gun owners a bad name.

[folsoml]

I hate that people think all cops should be good shooters. Most of them just push papers, or write tickets. I know several who don't even like guns. But then again some of the best shooters I know are police.

I hate that we can't afford to pay cops to learn how to shoot and to give them enough $$$ to have them shoot regularly because we are spending so much $$$ on healthcare for illegals (I work for a hospital) and housing people in jails who should be put on an island somewhere and left to fend for themselves, or hung.

I hate that some people think owning a gun makes you an expert on their use, and camo, a flashlight, or (especialy) lasers make you TACTICAL.

I hate that some people think IPSC is SWAT training.

I hate that I have to pay money to the goverment to have full auto or supressed guns

And I hate MALL NINJAs giving decent gun owners a bad name.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Feel better now?

[Schutzenmeister]

I hate that people think all cops should be good shooters. Most of them just push papers, or write tickets. I know several who don't even like guns. But then again some of the best shooters I know are police.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't even begin to think all cops should be good shooters. However ... Virtually all cops should be competent shooters, and ALL cops should be safe when handling a firearm.

I know a great deal of law enforcement involves paperwork ... a few officers even write tickets. However ... Have you ever noticed how many otherwise good cops have been shot and killed while writing tickets? Perhaps better competence with their sidearms might (I say might, not would) have prevented some of those deaths.

I too know several LEOs that are good to excellent (a couple of them are WORLD CLASS) shooters.

What I hate are politicians (You know ... The ass****s who write the laws restricting yours and my RIGHTS) who portray cops as being any better at handling a gun than the average citizen ... much less you or I!

[Crusher]

Back to the original rant, I do not understand WHY some competitors at matches “feel the need” express un-solicited critique/comments (specifically including the words “GAMER” and “REAL WORLD”) on my style of stage/match shooting as well as the need to pass judgment on the gun/support gear I chose to play the action pistol games with. These people have no idea of what is on my resume as far as “real world” nor do I ever run down the list (no need to brow beat them with personal information), I chose to play the “action pistol” game within the context or the rules (although right on the edge most times) for these are the parameters we operate in that specific environment (the games).

I did not realize this is a common experience for others in the games. I do NOT give advice on any type of stage breakdown/shooting style unless asked by another for such advice nor do I EVER comment on another’s performance other than to say “Nice run” where such credit is due regardless of what path they chose to follow during the stage.

I’m not sure if these comments made and directed at me personally are done in good faith (to be helpful for the “real world”) or to make those that offer commentary to feel better about their own performance. Either way I don’t give a $#!+ and would prefer that there was no comment of that nature at all.

Is it too much to expect the same courtesy from the “mall ninjas” and self proclaimed “tacti-cartle” (Yea I found DP40’s rant, now that WAS GOOD)

[zhunter]

[set up a couple of CoFs with Classic (= Turtle) targets.  Then sit back and LYAO watching the above gentleman trying to find the "head" of the target in order to place his third round! 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now that is just downright mean/funny!

I like it!!!!

[folsoml]

What I hate are politicians (You know ... The ass****s who write the laws restricting yours and my RIGHTS) who portray cops as being any better at handling a gun than the average citizen ... much less you or I!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Back off the original rant, and on to where it has drifted (sort of):

Maybe this will make you feel better. In Florida, there is a mandatory three day wait when purchasing a pistol. People who possess a Florida Concealed Weapons Permit are exempt from this wait, but gun toting law enforcement officers are NOT! Explain that one to me.