Single stack missing major PF - load to ten?

[HoMiE]

38 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

And this is why I dont agree with the load 10 after going minor at chrono. If you declare major you have declared you will shoot no more than 8 in a mag, I dont see how chrono should change that.

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Then just bump to open and load to 10. Takes care of the inequity from those who would of shot chrono first and load up to 10 minor vs those who shoot last and only got to shoot 8 rd minor for score. 

[shred]

6 hours ago, motosapiens said:

not an unreasonable argument, but I think it also makes sense to say that division rules allow you to load 10 if you declare minor, or 8 if you declare major. If you load more than that, you have broken division rules and go to open.

Actually you haven't broken SS division rules, same as if you declare Major and fail chrono.  You stay in SS but shooting Minor  Same as if you declared Limited at major PF and showed up with a 9mm Limited rig because your .40 broke the day before the match.  You'd shoot Limited minor, not Open.  Show up with 170mm mags because you don't have enough 140s and you shoot Open because you then busted the Division rules.

 

Its much simpler that way.  Say a shooter (say, me) signs up for a match (say, Area 4) in SS Major, but switches a few days before the match to SS Minor.  Updated in practiscore, all is good.   There's no match check-in, just show up to your first stage.  As it happens, the very first stage is chrono, said shooter chronos before shooting any stages, reminds all and sundry he's shooting Minor, chronos 132PF and all is good.

 

Except, all the rest of the pads haven't been updated and every other stage or so the ROs ask why this guy listed as Major is shooting a 9mm with 10 round mags and question him about it.  If every stage kept bumping said shooter to Open, it would have been a hassle getting it un-screwed for no reason whatsoever.

 

Final results had me properly scored Minor, btw.

 

[Akkid17]

So what I'm seeing is if you get dropped to minor you're free to load 10 rounds because per the rules you can shoot SS minor 10 whether or not you declared major because at that point you are shooting minor and minor SS allows 10 round mags. The rub lies in whether or not you're bumped to open for having too many rounds in the gun with your given declared power factor (i.e. scoring/capacity). Think of this, if you put extra rounds in the gun (declared major and have 9-10 in a mag) and aren't caught would this be cheating or just an accident and move on? Also, If a person were to shoot a couple stages and see a distinct advantage in stage design for additional rounds in the mag could they just go up to the RO and say, 'hey I'm going to shoot minor now' and load their mags up to 10 (if possible) and continue the match as minor SS with the same gun? 

[motosapiens]

4 hours ago, shred said:

Actually you haven't broken SS division rules, same as if you declare Major and fail chrono. 

 

 

wut? the division rules say you can only load 8 if you declare major. so if you declare major and load 10, you have broken those division rules. If you declare major and fail chrono, you haven't broken the division rules, you have just failed chrono.

[driver8M3]

Rules violations have severe consequences to encourage compliance and discourage cheating.

 

Thus, the move to open or shooting for no score for seemingly minor violations...like a strip of grip tape on the slide of your production gun, or 11 rounds in a production magazine after the start signal, or an open big stick that barely doesn't fit the gauge, etc.

 

Moving a SS major competitor to SS minor for having an extra round after the start signal, and then also letting him continue to load 10 for the rest of the match isn't much of a penalty (especially compared to the above examples). Depending on the stages of a match and a competitor's schedule, it could actually promote outright cheating. If the ROs notice that you "accidentally" had an extra round loaded, you just shoot for more alphas the rest of the way.

 

[shred]

13 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

wut? the division rules say you can only load 8 if you declare major. so if you declare major and load 10, you have broken those division rules. If you declare major and fail chrono, you haven't broken the division rules, you have just failed chrono.

 

Power factor is not part of a division declaration.  If it was then failing chrono would also be a bump to open because you'd broken the declaration then too.

 

The rules use 'Declared Division' and 'Declared Power Factor' as different items throughout.

 

 

[HCH]

1 hour ago, shred said:

 

Power factor is not part of a division declaration.  If it was then failing chrono would also be a bump to open because you'd broken the declaration then too.

 

The rules use 'Declared Division' and 'Declared Power Factor' as different items throughout.

 

 

 

It is a division declaration, which is why you only get 8 rounds claiming Major in SS. And why everyone in Production, CO, and PCC are scored Minor, regardless of caliber or actual PF. 

[motosapiens]

1 hour ago, shred said:

 

Power factor is not part of a division declaration. 

 

 

but the division rules for single stack say you can only load 8 rounds if you declare major. If you load more than 8, you have broken the division rules.

 

Note that other divisions (such as limited) have different division rules, so loading any amount won't break division rules and get you moved to open, it will just get you scored minor if you fail chrono (which is different than breaking division rules).

Edited July 23, 2019 by motosapiens

[Mcfoto]

17 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

but the division rules for single stack say you can only load 8 rounds if you declare major. If you load more than 8, you have broken the division rules.

 

Note that other divisions (such as limited) have different division rules, so loading any amount won't break division rules and get you moved to open, it will just get you scored minor if you fail chrono (which is different than breaking division rules).

 

Revo has capacity restrictions but is worded differently (as one doesn't load "mags.") From Appendix D6: "maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload if Major PF declared, 8 if minor PF declared." So if a Revo shooter declaring Major shoots 7 before a reload, are they moved to Minor or Open? And back to the OP's point, if they fail to make Major at chrono but make minor, can they shoot 7 or 8 the rest of the match?

[HCH]

25 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

but the division rules for single stack say you can only load 8 rounds if you declare major. If you load more than 8, you have broken the division rules.

 

Note that other divisions (such as limited) have different division rules, so loading any amount won't break division rules and get you moved to open, it will just get you scored minor if you fail chrono (which is different than breaking division rules).

 

100%

[MikeBurgess]

15 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

wut? the division rules say you can only load 8 if you declare major. so if you declare major and load 10, you have broken those division rules. If you declare major and fail chrono, you haven't broken the division rules, you have just failed chrono.

exactly you have failed chrono but not changed you declaration 

[HCH]

Just now, Mcfoto said:

 

Revo has capacity restrictions but is worded differently (as one doesn't load "mags.") From Appendix D6: "maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload if Major PF declared, 8 if minor PF declared." So if a Revo shooter declaring Major shoots 7 before a reload, are they moved to Minor or Open? And back to the OP's point, if they fail to make Major at chrono but make minor, can they shoot 7 or 8 the rest of the match?

1: Open

2: Yes

[motosapiens]

24 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said:

exactly you have failed chrono but not changed you declaration 

i could see that going either way, and I honestly don't care which way as long as it's the same every time. I'm a grown-ass man, so if I flunk chrono I'm going to be stuck shooting 8 rounds of 45 anyway, instead of some sissy girlie round designed for feds.

[MikeBurgess]

1 hour ago, motosapiens said:

i could see that going either way, and I honestly don't care which way as long as it's the same every time. I'm a grown-ass man, so if I flunk chrono I'm going to be stuck shooting 8 rounds of 45 anyway, instead of some sissy girlie round designed for feds.

I guess I'm a grown ass man as well, but unfortunately I have suffered the curse of 8 round minor before.

 

I am good with it being either way I would just very much like it to be consistent both ways, either the shooters declared PF sets their capacity for division compliance or division compliance is only governed by PF scoring (bump to minor for 9+ in mags)

 

[RJH]

Most divisions have two requirements to make major, single stack and revolver actually have three. Failing to meet any of these requirements makes you scored minor, it does not bump you to open. That's the most simplistic direct way I know how to say it. Any advantage perceived or real is what it is, but no rule supports bumping somebody to open for failing to meet the requirements of power factor.

[motosapiens]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

Most divisions have two requirements to make major, single stack and revolver actually have three. Failing to meet any of these requirements makes you scored minor, it does not bump you to open. That's the most simplistic direct way I know how to say it. Any advantage perceived or real is what it is, but no rule supports bumping somebody to open for failing to meet the requirements of power factor.

 

There are no additional requirements to make major in single stack or revolver. the requirements are the same as any other division. Big enough caliber and sufficient weight x velocity.

 

But there are additional division requirements for capacity that depend on which pf you declare.

 

[RJH]

10 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

There are no additional requirements to make major in single stack or revolver. the requirements are the same as any other division. Big enough caliber and sufficient weight x velocity.

 

But there are additional division requirements for capacity that depend on which pf you declare.

 

Actually, there are three, to be scored major you have to have 40 caliber at least, you have to shoot 165 power factor at least, and you cannot load more than 8 rounds. Failing to do any of these will not allow you to be scored major. So yes, all three are required

Edited July 23, 2019 by RJH

[motosapiens]

9 minutes ago, RJH said:

Actually, there are three, to be scored major you have to have 40 caliber at least, you have to shoot 165 power factor at least, and you cannot load more than 8 rounds. Failing to do any of these will not allow you to be scored major. So yes, all three are required

No, you have it backwards. first you declare major, then you use the right size bullet and achieve the right velocity. The end.

 

chrono doesn't check to see how many bullets you are loading. There is nothing in the rulebook about magazine capacity affecting your measured power factor at chrono. What the rulebook *does* say is that your declared powerfactor affects your magazine capacity, not the other way around.

Edited July 23, 2019 by motosapiens

[RJH]

24 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

No, you have it backwards. first you declare major, then you use the right size bullet and achieve the right velocity. The end.

 

chrono doesn't check to see how many bullets you are loading. There is nothing in the rulebook about magazine capacity affecting your measured power factor at chrono. What the rulebook *does* say is that your declared powerfactor affects your magazine capacity, not the other way around.

It also says that your actual power factor has to meet your declared power factor , if it doesn't it means you're scored minor scored minor, just like if your capacity doesn't line up with your declare power factor, you're scored minor.

 

And no, power factor and mag capacity are tied together in single stack. One most definitely dictates the other. And you have to have the right power factor, bullet size, and mag capacity to shoot major.

 

There is still no rule showing that you can't load to division capacity. However if you load to max division capacity in single stack you will be scored minor, regardless of whether your power factor is major or minor. Because loading no more than eight is a requirement to claim major power factor in single stack. If you disagree show me anywhere in the rules I can load more than eight in single stack and still be scored major, because if I can't it's a requirement. Oh yeah, I'm obviously talking mag capacity after the buzzer before some one says you can load 8 + 1.

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by RJH

[motosapiens]

I understand that you believe that, but so far anyway, the most experienced RM's in the sport have contradicted you in this thread. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[RJH]

3 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

I understand that you believe that, but so far anyway, the most experienced RM's in the sport have contradicted you in this thread. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Right,  it will be interesting to see what the ruling that ends up being posted is, till then I am going to stick with loading 9 only brakes power factor capacity, and not division capacity. And then should only be penalized by power factor and not a division bump.

[Akkid17]

22 minutes ago, RJH said:

Right,  it will be interesting to see what the ruling that ends up being posted is, till then I am going to stick with loading 9 only brakes power factor capacity, and not division capacity. And then should only be penalized by power factor and not a division bump.

Unless someone claims you’re cheating

[Mcfoto]

1 hour ago, RJH said:

Actually, there are three, to be scored major you have to have 40 caliber at least, you have to shoot 165 power factor at least, and you cannot load more than 8 rounds. Failing to do any of these will not allow you to be scored major. So yes, all three are required

 

Tiny correction, Revos do NOT have a caliber requirement for Major so you could technically shoot .357 mag in an 8-shot 627 but need to reload at 6 rounds... But this thread mostly concerns SS which DOES require .40 for Major. Carry on.

[RJH]

15 minutes ago, Akkid17 said:

Unless someone claims you’re cheating

, there's always someone claiming someone's cheating. I don't worry about it too much. Cheaters are going to cheat and if they don't cheat one way they'll just find some other. Trying to make a rule for every possible cheater is impossible.

 

Actually cheating on power factor and mag length would be a couple of the easiest things to do. And I'm sure it happens, but I'll bet most people that missed mag length and power factor do it accidentally

 

[RJH]

5 minutes ago, Mcfoto said:

 

Tiny correction, Revos do NOT have a caliber requirement for Major so you could technically shoot .357 mag in an 8-shot 627 but need to reload at 6 rounds... But this thread mostly concerns SS which DOES require .40 for Major. Carry on.

I was all ready to say that there was a 355 requirement, same as for making minor, but then I looked at the appendix and it said no requirement. Which begs the question could you show up with a hot 3220 and shoot revolver major? Maybe a topic for another thread haha

Edited July 23, 2019 by RJH