Single stack missing major PF - load to ten?

[J_Allen]

Just a theoretical question that I was thinking about the other day. Let’s say you are running a 40 s&w single stack rig, and register for major PF. At chrono you don’t make it and thus are scored minor for the match. Does this mean that all the subsequent stages you shoot after the chrono can now have the mags topped off at ten rounds rather than the eight you were loading before the chrono? I don’t see why not, as you won’t be getting an advantage in the match (assuming your ammo is way over minor PF, and all prior stages you were in essence running minor PF with eight round mags). Just curious.

[HoMiE]

As long as mags fit in box per Appendix D5 #7, you can shoot 10 rounds as minor. 

[J_Allen]

Yes, I just think it’s interesting in that it is the only case I can think of, where you can make a compensatory move after failing chrono to mitigate the change to minor.

[Sdlrodeo]

Very good question. On a similar note, if you registered for LTD Maj and started shooting a .40 but chrono’d minor, could you switch to a 9mm (same platform) and thus have higher capacity in the same 140mm mags?

 

 

[MemphisMechanic]

13 minutes ago, Sdlrodeo said:

Very good question. On a similar note, if you registered for LTD Maj and started shooting a .40 but chrono’d minor, could you switch to a 9mm (same platform) and thus have higher capacity in the same 140mm mags?

 

All changes of gun (typically when your primary chokes and you switch to an identical backup gun) must be approved by the MD.

 

So it’s up to how much he likes you.

Edited July 18, 2019 by MemphisMechanic

[BritinUSA]

I think Sevigny did that at SS Nationals one year.

 

Correction: Dave was shooting .45 when he chrono’ed at 164.7 at the 2013 SS Nationals.... He could not shoot 10 rounds as his magazines would only hold eight.

Edited July 18, 2019 by BritinUSA

[NickBlasta]

1 hour ago, Sdlrodeo said:

Very good question. On a similar note, if you registered for LTD Maj and started shooting a .40 but chrono’d minor, could you switch to a 9mm (same platform) and thus have higher capacity in the same 140mm mags?

 

 

 

No. 5.1.7.2.

[shred]

You could switch to Minor PF ammo, assuming that re-chronos ok.

 

[pskys2]

11 hours ago, Sdlrodeo said:

Very good question. On a similar note, if you registered for LTD Maj and started shooting a .40 but chrono’d minor, could you switch to a 9mm (same platform) and thus have higher capacity in the same 140mm mags?

 

 

Doubt it as "5.1.7.2 In using the substitute firearm the competitor will not gain a competitive advantage."  I'd think they would regard increasing capacity with a different gun that has not broken would be gaining a competitive advantage.  Now a good range lawyer "might" be able to sway the MD/RM that since it's minor vs major and IF the gun somehow was now broken?

It's a gamble and technically you would need to shoot a COF and have the original gun "break".

Now this is all in Level II and up, if it's aLevel I club match, you may be allowed.

[HoMiE]

11 hours ago, NickBlasta said:

 

No. 5.1.7.2.

Was at an area match and guy shooting single stack sight broke on a .45 and He was allowed to use his backup gun in 9mm shooting minor. He just had to re-chrono. 

[HCH]

I would allow a competitor to switch. 

 

This also brings up something I heard at a match awhile back about someone shooting a Glock in Limited Major. The Glock broke. Someone offered to let the shooter use a 2011 to finish the match, in the same division and PF. MD said no, because the 2011 offered some mystical “competitive advantage”. 

 

So, where does one draw that line?

[Gary Stevens]

How does the MD make decisions that are delegated to the RM?

[HCH]

He takes of his “MD” morale patch and slaps on his “RM” morale patch. 

[Gary Stevens]

6 minutes ago, HCH said:

He takes of his “MD” morale patch and slaps on his “RM” morale patch. 

 

Ah, a changeling! 

[HCH]

4 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Ah, a changeling! 

 

Like when Andy Griffith goes from being Sheriff to JP  

[NickBlasta]

2 hours ago, HoMiE said:

Was at an area match and guy shooting single stack sight broke on a .45 and He was allowed to use his backup gun in 9mm shooting minor. He just had to re-chrono. 

 

Shrug, shouldn't have happened. It would be a competitive advantage to use the other gun.

[RJH]

16 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

Shrug, shouldn't have happened. It would be a competitive advantage to use the other gun.

How would it be a competitive advantage. The competitive Advantage rule needs to be changed because it's too damn subjective. Any gun would be a competitive advantage over a broken gun. As long as both guns meet division requirements, that should be enough. No subjectivity. How is his backup gun going to be a competitive advantage over his primary gun?

 

I am fine with your primary gun has to break before you can change guns, but after that as long as your new gun meets division requirements, there can really be no competitive advantage, unless the range Master deems himself competitive Advantage Guru of the universe

Edited July 18, 2019 by RJH

[NickBlasta]

2 minutes ago, RJH said:

How would it be a competitive advantage. The competitive Advantage rule needs to be changed because it's too damn subjective. Any gun would be a competitive advantage over a broken gun. As long as both guns meet division requirements, that should be enough. No subjectivity. How is his backup gun going to be a competitive advantage over his primary gun?

 

I am fine with your primary gun has to break before you can change guns, but after that as long as your new gun meets division requirements, there can really be no competitive advantage, unless the range Master deems himself competitive Advantage Guru of the universe

 

You aren't considering the competitive advantage in using a working gun over a broken one, just if the backup gun offers an advantage over the primary (if it was working). Since the primary holds 8 rounds and the backup holds 10, that would be a significant advantage.

[HoMiE]

5 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

You aren't considering the competitive advantage in using a working gun over a broken one, just if the backup gun offers an advantage over the primary (if it was working). Since the primary holds 8 rounds and the backup holds 10, that would be a significant advantage.

8 major vs 10 minor is allowed in division so the competitive advantage argument is moot. 

[NickBlasta]

3 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

8 major vs 10 minor is allowed in division so the competitive advantage argument is moot. 

 

Again, you aren't considering if it's allowable in the division or not (that's 5.1.7.1), just if using this gun vs. that gun offers you an advantage.

Edited July 18, 2019 by NickBlasta

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

You aren't considering the competitive advantage in using a working gun over a broken one, just if the backup gun offers an advantage over the primary (if it was working). Since the primary holds 8 rounds and the backup holds 10, that would be a significant advantage.

If that was the case then no one would ever shoot major. The guns are in the same division because they are competitively Equitable in the first place. That is the huge flaw with the competitive advantage wording in the rulebook. If there was a true competitive Advantage the guns would not be allowed in the same division. Since the guns are allowed in the same division then there is no competitive Advantage from one versus the other. Anything else is subjective

 

 

 

Also since I firmly believe major is always an advantage in single stack, if I was rangemaster all minor guns would automatically be allowed, because IMO they are at a competitive disadvantage even with the two extra rounds. I know people who believe the complete opposite of me, so they may have the exact opposite ruling, which is why the wording should be changed, because all it leads to is the subjectivity of the acting RM.

[RJH]

17 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

8 major vs 10 minor is allowed in division so the competitive advantage argument is moot. 

Exactly

[Racinready300ex]

 

13 minutes ago, HoMiE said:

8 major vs 10 minor is allowed in division so the competitive advantage argument is moot. 

 

How about this....What it two shooters in SS go minor both are shooting 40 and have ten round mags. Shooter 1 starts a chrono, and shooter 2 finishes there. Shooter 1 gets to shoot the whole match with 10 round mags shooter 2 already shot the whole match with 8 round mags.

 

Does shooter 1 not gain a competitive advantage over shooter 1? What about all the guys who declared minor and made PF, now there on equal ground with the guy who failed to make his PF. Is that fair?

 

IMO if you declare major you should be forced to load 8 all day. If you switch to 10 you are gaining a advantage, by reducing the severity of the penalty for not making PF.

[NickBlasta]

1 minute ago, RJH said:

If that was the case then no one would ever shoot major. The guns are in the same division because they are competitively Equitable in the first place. That is the huge flaw with the competitive advantage wording in the rulebook. If there was a true competitive Advantage the guns would not be allowed in the same division. Since the guns are allowed in the same division then there is no competitive Advantage from one versus the other. Anything else is subjective

 

 

 

Also since I firmly believe major is always an advantage in single stack, if I was rangemaster all minor guns would automatically be allowed, because IMO they are at a competitive disadvantage even with the two extra rounds. I know people who believe the complete opposite of me, so they may have the exact opposite ruling, which is why the wording should be changed, because all it leads to is the subjectivity of the acting RM.

 

I don't think you understand the rule. You aren't considering, like as, when registering, "is it better to shoot major or minor", you are considering in the moment if the competitor's backup gun is better than his primary.

 

So we have a major shooter that's gone minor with his ammo, not by choice. He's shooting 8rd minor now. His gun breaks. He has another 8rd gun like his primary and a 10rd minor gun in his bag. Which gun would be better for him to use? The same gun or the gun with the 25% capacity advantage?

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, NickBlasta said:

 

I don't think you understand the rule. You aren't considering, like as, when registering, "is it better to shoot major or minor", you are considering in the moment if the competitor's backup gun is better than his primary.

 

So we have a major shooter that's gone minor with his ammo, not by choice. He's shooting 8rd minor now. His gun breaks. He has another 8rd gun like his primary and a 10rd minor gun in his bag. Which gun would be better for him to use? The same gun or the gun with the 25% capacity advantage?

He's already at a huge disadvantage because he shot an eight round gun in every stage he's already shot. Are you going to follow him to his car to see what all guns he has? Otherwise how do you know he has another 8-round gun in his car? And how it going to a 10-round gun be any competitive Advantage after shooting several stages with an eight round gun that made minor, then his gun breaking, probably costing him a stage, then having to switch to a backup gun? Your ruling is clearly subjective, which leads to these issues, and yes I considered that he was going from an eight round gun to a 10-round gun. Also is there anything in the rules saying you can't change your mags mid-match? If so I haven't seen it, but I'm not saying for sure it ain't there