Question RE low ready

[lgh]

What constitutes low ready in rimfire? Muzzle pointed in front of target or directly in front of shooter or ...? And what is the penalty for jumping the beep?

 

[Matt1911]

My local club puts a short orange cone out about 6-8 feet from the shooting box. 

As long as you are pointed toward the cone, you're good. 

[zzt]

The low ready flag is supposed to be 10' away from the shooting box and 2' high.  That is where you are supposed to point your rimfire or PCC to start.

[ADulay]

Rule 8.3.4.1 covers a False Start.

 

Rule 10.2.6 covers "creeping" at the start.

 

The former is a restart.  The latter is a PE.

 

But that's from the USPSA Rulebook.  Couldn't find anything mentioned in the Steel Challenge book.

 

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Edited July 12, 2019 by ADulay
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[jrdoran]

Quote

7.1.1: In the event that a competitor begins his attempt at the course of fire prematurely (“false start” prior to the issuance of the start signal) the Range Officer will, as soon as possible, stop and restart the competitor once the course of fire has been restored. Attempt means the gun is drawn and/or shots fired, but the timer has not been started.

 

Quote

7.1 Creeping: A competitor who is creeping (e.g. moving hands towards the firearm, or physically moving to a more advantageous shooting position or posture at the start signal) shall receive a 3 second procedural penalty. If the competitor is moving prior to the start signal, he shall be stopped and restarted once still and in the correct start position. In the event that the RO cannot stop the competitor prior to the start signal, the competitor will incur a 3 second penalty.

 

https://uspsa.org/viewer/pdf/SCSA_Rule_Book.pdf

 

 

 

[xpierrat]

And this one is clear as MUD....   if I think I hear the beep ( I am a very hard of hearing Super Sr ) and start to raise my RFRO and the beep then goes off it sounds like it would be creeping???? But I was actually starting because I thought I heard the beep????   In my mind and probably the dictionary definition of creeping ( "(of a thing) move very slowly at an inexorably steady pace." )  one would have to be moving slowly for it to bee creeping.... If I made my usual fast (LOL ) move to start a string it would be a false start.  Clear as day Huh????

 

[zzt]

Actually, it is pretty clear.  If you anticipate the buzzer by a fraction of a second and I cannot stop the beep, you get a procedural.  If I can stop the beep we restart.  IF you 'thought' you heard the beep and started shooting before I beep you, I'll yell stop.  We'll repaint the targets and start over.  If you are that hard of hearing you should consider electronic muffs.

[Hammer002]

Its anything but clear and hopes are for change in 2020.  Both rules describe the exact same thing with the only difference being a subjective opinion or competence level of the RO as to whether he "thought" or "felt like" he could "stop" or not.  No matter how you describe it, different people as RO's will have different thoughts, opinions, and even reaction times.  Just reshoot it if you feel something is off.  Nothing, especially concerning the RO, should be subjective or, in a worse case scenario, manipulated by the RO.  The RO should never have the ability to affect a competitor, purposefully nor due to incompetence nor in the position of judgement or interpretation.  This is obviously a case of splitting hairs and close should always benefit the shooter.  I hope to see the creeping rule and definition simply go away next year and just reshoot in either circumstance currently described.  The other bit of contradiction is the RO is to wait for the competitor to be still before giving the are you ready command, through stand by, and until the audible sound.  All of which is the RO's responsibility to ensure.  If the shooter is not still during any of this, no matter the timing, it is not a correct start.  Just like my conversations that got the Showdown rule changed this year regarding penalizing a shooter for a fourth string in a box, when the box was no longer a valid starting position, therefore the RO incorrectly started the competitor - same as you cant start them with their hands not correctly placed.  That's all RO responsibility before start.  Hope to see the change next year.

 

Easier said, follow Troy's rule of "don't be an a_-hole as an RO"

 

...Not sure about the plate repainting and starting over.  Plates are only painted in between competitors.  Also, low ready indicator is actually a MAXIMUM of 2'.  It can be lower.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Hammer002

[zzt]

Repaint if first string only.  As I said earlier, it is quite clear.  I don't agree with it, but those are the rules.  ROs are allowed to coach in Level 1, so I'd tell the shooter to move to the second box in Showdown.

[GOF]

11 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

Its anything but clear and hopes are for change in 2020.  Both rules describe the exact same thing with the only difference being a subjective opinion or competence level of the RO as to whether he "thought" or "felt like" he could "stop" or not.  No matter how you describe it, different people as RO's will have different thoughts, opinions, and even reaction times.  Just reshoot it if you feel something is off.  Nothing, especially concerning the RO, should be subjective or, in a worse case scenario, manipulated by the RO.  The RO should never have the ability to affect a competitor, purposefully nor due to incompetence nor in the position of judgement or interpretation.  This is obviously a case of splitting hairs and close should always benefit the shooter.  I hope to see the creeping rule and definition simply go away next year and just reshoot in either circumstance currently described.  The other bit of contradiction is the RO is to wait for the competitor to be still before giving the are you ready command, through stand by, and until the audible sound.  All of which is the RO's responsibility to ensure.  If the shooter is not still during any of this, no matter the timing, it is not a correct start.  Just like my conversations that got the Showdown rule changed this year regarding penalizing a shooter for a fourth string in a box, when the box was no longer a valid starting position, therefore the RO incorrectly started the competitor - same as you cant start them with their hands not correctly placed.  That's all RO responsibility before start.  Hope to see the change next year.

 

Easier said, follow Troy's rule of "don't be an a_-hole as an RO"

 

...Not sure about the plate repainting and starting over.  Plates are only painted in between competitors.  Also, low ready indicator is actually a MAXIMUM of 2'.  It can be lower.

A BIG +1! Inexperienced ROs can screw a lot of things up. Relying upon hazily-written Rules to justify their incompetence just makes things worse. Seen it. I RO two or three Steel club matches a month and always feel that the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.

Just because you're holding the timer doesn't mean you are GOD. You should be there to assist the shooter, not slam them. Commonsense has to enter at some point. 

[Hammer002]

4 hours ago, GOF said:

A BIG +1! Inexperienced ROs can screw a lot of things up. Relying upon hazily-written Rules to justify their incompetence just makes things worse. Seen it. I RO two or three Steel club matches a month and always feel that the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.

Just because you're holding the timer doesn't mean you are GOD. You should be there to assist the shooter, not slam them. Commonsense has to enter at some point. 

 

See?  This guy gets it. Nice. 

[Sarge]

6 hours ago, GOF said:

A BIG +1! Inexperienced ROs can screw a lot of things up. Relying upon hazily-written Rules to justify their incompetence just makes things worse. Seen it. I RO two or three Steel club matches a month and always feel that the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt.

Just because you're holding the timer doesn't mean you are GOD. You should be there to assist the shooter, not slam them. Commonsense has to enter at some point. 

Where is “shooter gets the benefit of the doubt” in the rule book? Not assisting a shooter does not equate to slamming them. RO’s job is seeing that a shooter makes it safely through a COF, not helping them.

  Of course assistance is authorized in Level I matches. But I only help brand new shooters that clearly need it. If you are a seasoned shooter you should get no assistance from the RO.

[xpierrat]

Like I said ZZT clear as mud.... and BTW electronic ear muffs do not help High frequency hearing loss High end electronic hearing aids that squelch anything over 85 db and can be used in shooting sports do work but are very expensive.... and a strong start BEFORE the beep is considered a false start by every RO I have worked with including this one

I called two of them at the worlds this year.... by definition ( look it up ) creeping is a slow movement

 

[lgh]

Thanks for all the responses. Very helpful.

 

[xpierrat]

I did a couple of videos at our weekly 6 stage match to try and explain this a little better.... the first vid is of creeping and the RO did not stop the shooter before the beep and by rule should incur a 3 second penalty. I will say this....  ANY RO worth his or her salt SHOULD have stopped this attempt before the beep and IMHO is not following Troy's rule # 1

 

In most cases that I see....  the shooter is on the start cone. flag, sign, etc  and starts creeping a couple of inches and stops …. at this point he /she is not in the proper start position and should get the command " Stop" and the direction to point at the start mark and then get "are you ready " again....  I just do not ever see the 3 second being applied unless the RO is just being a "D^@#$ "  OR  unless the shooter has received several stops and back on start commands and just does not seem to get that he/she is creeping

 

[xpierrat]

In the next Video we see a typical false start.... though the start is usually closer the beep than in this video....

[MemphisMechanic]

On 7/13/2019 at 7:35 PM, Sarge said:

Where is “shooter gets the benefit of the doubt” in the rule book?

 

It’s in the “I don’t want to get f###d by karma when I make the mistake and this guy has the buzzer” section. Near the back, in the Appendix C. 

 

For Common Courtesy.

 

If you have the ability to restart a guy who accidentally jumped the timer, or hit him with a penalty, that goes to the RO’s Golden Rule:

 

Don’t be a dick.

 

[lgh]

On 7/15/2019 at 2:09 PM, MemphisMechanic said:

If you have the ability to restart a guy who accidentally jumped the timer, or hit him with a penalty, that goes to the RO’s Golden Rule:

  

Don’t be a dick.

Hillarious! Jumping the beep gives a HUGE advantage on the first shot. So does the low ready position location. That's why I asked. But yeah, give 'em a break but don't let them get away with it.