Quick Question about FTSA Penalties and Multiple Strings

[DKorn]

On multiple string stages, are FTSA penalties assessed per string or for the stage overall?

 

This came up on the classifier (18-08 The Condor) at a match today. We had a shooter have a major jam on the second string of the classifier and end up being unable to clear the jam. He shot only 4 of the 8 targets in the second string; in the first string he shot at all 8 targets. There was some disagreement about whether he should get 4 FTSA penalties for the 4 targets he didn’t shoot at in the second string or no FTSA penalties since those targets were shot at earlier in the course of fire.

 

It ended up not mattering since the hit factor was zero anyway, but I want to know for future reference.

[RJH]

For the stage, not the string

[Lastcat]

6 minutes ago, DKorn said:

On multiple string stages, are FTSA penalties assessed per string or for the stage overall?

 

This came up on the classifier (18-08 The Condor) at a match today. We had a shooter have a major jam on the second string of the classifier and end up being unable to clear the jam. He shot only 4 of the 8 targets in the second string; in the first string he shot at all 8 targets. There was some disagreement about whether he should get 4 FTSA penalties for the 4 targets he didn’t shoot at in the second string or no FTSA penalties since those targets were shot at earlier in the course of fire.

 

It ended up not mattering since the hit factor was zero anyway, but I want to know for future reference.

 

Score all targets.Then add 4 Mikes and 4 FSTA.

 

Unfortunate for the shooter, but that's how it goes. Even if he had a jam on the first shot. Score all targets and apply penalties. As an RO, I think it would be just easier to enter Zero for this Stage. 

 

Some (not all) Clubs allow for a shooter to buy another chance at a Classifier.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Lastcat

[DKorn]

8 minutes ago, RJH said:

For the stage, not the string

 

I agree, which means no FTSA penalties in this case because the targets were shot at during the stage.  

 

This is my interpretation based on:

“9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round...” (emphasis added by me)

[Lastcat]

41 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

I agree, which means no FTSA penalties in this case because the targets were shot at during the stage.  

 

This is my interpretation based on:

“9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round...” (emphasis added by me)

 

True, if this was not a Multiple String Stage. String 2 states to engage with 1 round per target. Since that did not happen, then the WSB was not followed. 

 

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring cardboard
targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two
hits to score. Scoring metal targets must be shot with a minimum of one
round each and must fall to score.

 

The Condor 18-08 

 

String 1: On the audible start signal, engage T1-T4 from box A with only 1 round per target, perform a mandatory reload, and engage T5-T8 from box B with only 1 round per target.

 

String 2: On the audible start signal, engage T5-T8 from box B with only 1 round per target, perform a mandatory reload, and engage T1-T4 from box A with only 1 round per target.

[RJH]

19 minutes ago, Lastcat said:

 

True, if this was not a Multiple String Stage. String 2 states to engage with 1 round per target. Since that did not happen, then the WSB was not followed. 

 

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring cardboard
targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two
hits to score. Scoring metal targets must be shot with a minimum of one
round each and must fall to score.

 

The Condor 18-08 

 

String 1: On the audible start signal, engage T1-T4 from box A with only 1 round per target, perform a mandatory reload, and engage T5-T8 from box B with only 1 round per target.

 

String 2: On the audible start signal, engage T5-T8 from box B with only 1 round per target, perform a mandatory reload, and engage T1-T4 from box A with only 1 round per target.

 

NO

 

10.2.2.1

[DKorn]

I went ahead and emailed NROI for clarification. In the scenario we actually experienced at the match, it didn’t matter, but I could see scenarios where the penalty make an actual difference.

[Dave Campbell]

I had a similar question today .  Stage had multiple hidden targets, while scoring 1 had 4 hits and 1 had none,  shooter gets 2 mikes.  Does he also get 1 ftsa. 

There were enough shots, hits in the wrong place, Simple mikes, or added penalty . 

[Sarge]

Just now, Dave Campbell said:

I had a similar question today .  Stage had multiple hidden targets, while scoring 1 had 4 hits and 1 had none,  shooter gets 2 mikes.  Does he also get 1 ftsa. 

There were enough shots, hits in the wrong place, Simple mikes, or added penalty . 

You have to KNOW he didn’t shoot at it. If you KNOW that then it’s an FTSA.

[Poppa Bear]

I would look at how close the targets were to each other.  If they were next to each other so that it was easy to mistake one for the other, the intent was there and I would not assess FTSA.  If they were separated by enough distance or obstacles so that he shot the same target twice from two locations and you could not reasonable mistake one for the other, I would assess the FTSA.

 

Another way to phrase it is if you can say they did not engage the target while the stage was being shot, you can assess FTSA penalties.  If the only way you know a target was not shot at was because it did not have any holes in it while the one next to it has extra holes it is hard to justify a FTSA penalty rather than assessing misses.  In this case it would have  appeared to you that they shot at the target but missed because you could not say they failed to shoot at it with 100% certainty during the COF.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Poppa Bear
extra reasoning

[bret]

1 hour ago, Dave Campbell said:

I had a similar question today .  Stage had multiple hidden targets, while scoring 1 had 4 hits and 1 had none,  shooter gets 2 mikes.  Does he also get 1 ftsa. 

There were enough shots, hits in the wrong place, Simple mikes, or added penalty . 

Do you know with 100% certainty the targets weren't shot at, or are you guessing based on hits?

 

You can't give procedurals on what you think the shooter did or didn't do, only for what you know the shooter did or did not do.

 

if uncertain, score it and don't speculate. 

[ima45dv8]

Mikes as appropriate.

No FTSA's as the targets were engaged in string 1. 

 

10.2.7

[Lastcat]

10 hours ago, RJH said:

 

NO

 

10.2.2.1

 

No, that's not it either. 10.2.2.1 talks about Proc. penalties that do not apply to the number of shots (insufficient or additional shots). It's still:

 

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring cardboard
targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two
hits to score. Scoring metal targets must be shot with a minimum of one
round each and must fall to score.

 

All 8 targets were shot with one round. Score targets as you see them. Add 4 mikes and no FSTA procedure (correcting my first reply). 

[RJH]

1 hour ago, Lastcat said:

 

No, that's not it either. 10.2.2.1 talks about Proc. penalties that do not apply to the number of shots (insufficient or additional shots). It's still:

 

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring cardboard
targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two
hits to score. Scoring metal targets must be shot with a minimum of one
round each and must fall to score.

 

All 8 targets were shot with one round. Score targets as you see them. Add 4 mikes and no FSTA procedure (correcting my first reply). 

Now you got it, can't give FTSA  on a stage for targets with holes in them.  

Here is some applicable rules, i am sure i could have missed some though., haha

 

Notice 9.5.7 says a course of fire, a course of fire consist of all strings

 

6.1.1 String - A separately timed component of a stage. Except for Standard Exercises (see 1.2.2.1), a stage will be considered a single string. Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded, and the targets taped between strings. The time component of all strings will be totaled and the results achieved are then tallied to produce a final stage result

 

 

9.5.7 A competitor who fails to shoot at the face of each scoring target in a course of fire with at least one round will incur one procedural penalty per target for failure to shoot at the target, as well as appropriate penalties for misses (see Rule 10.2.7).

 

 

 

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with the procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence. However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple shots contrary to the required position or stance).

    10.2.2.1 Procedural penalties for failure to comply with stage procedures do not apply to the number of shots fired. Penalties for firing insufficient or additional shots are addressed in        other rules and must not be penalized under the provisions of 10.2.2

 

 

 

 

[DKorn]

4 hours ago, Lastcat said:

 

No, that's not it either. 10.2.2.1 talks about Proc. penalties that do not apply to the number of shots (insufficient or additional shots). It's still:

 

9.5.1 Unless otherwise specified in the written stage briefing, scoring cardboard
targets must be shot with a minimum of one round each, with the best two
hits to score. Scoring metal targets must be shot with a minimum of one
round each and must fall to score.

 

All 8 targets were shot with one round. Score targets as you see them. Add 4 mikes and no FSTA procedure (correcting my first reply). 

 

This is what I think, except I wouldn’t think of it as “add 4 mikes”. To me that’s just part of scoring the targets. 

 

Basically, I think of FTSA as being assessed based on what I observed the shooter doing (did I see that a target was not engaged- for example, on another stage we had a shooter fire only 4 shots from a port with 3 targets that were only available from that port. Unless I saw one hit each on two targets, there was going to be a target that didn’t get shot at) and mikes and scoring based on the targets themselves. The part I was unclear about is whether the targets have to be shot at correctly in each string to avoid FTSA penalties, or if they only have to be shot at at some point in the course of fire. 

[TaterHead]

There is no such thing as a quick question....

[Sarge]

15 hours ago, DKorn said:

I went ahead and emailed NROI for clarification. In the scenario we actually experienced at the match, it didn’t matter, but I could see scenarios where the penalty make an actual difference.

Make sure to post Troy’s Response.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Sarge

[RJH]

56 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

This is what I think, except I wouldn’t think of it as “add 4 mikes”. To me that’s just part of scoring the targets. 

 

Basically, I think of FTSA as being assessed based on what I observed the shooter doing (did I see that a target was not engaged- for example, on another stage we had a shooter fire only 4 shots from a port with 3 targets that were only available from that port. Unless I saw one hit each on two targets, there was going to be a target that didn’t get shot at) and mikes and scoring based on the targets themselves. The part I was unclear about is whether the targets have to be shot at correctly in each string to avoid FTSA penalties, or if they only have to be shot at at some point in the course of fire. 

A string is a part of a stage. Unless the wsb states scoring and taping between strings you cant asses a FTSA on a target with holes in it. The holes prove fairly certainly that the target was shot is on that stage. The shooter gets the mikes, but no FTSA. Because  FTSA penealties are assesed for a stage, with the one exception noted above

[theWacoKid]

No FTSA's according to the rule book.

 

FTSA's are applied to the course of fire (9.5.7).  Course of fire is defined as a stage (Glossary).  A string is a component of a stage (6.1.1).  A component of something is not that something.

 

So, was the target shot at during the stage (aka course of fire)?  Yes.  No FTSA's.  

 

Unfortunately I saw this applied wrong at nationals last year by the highest authority.  Either they were confused or simply got it wrong.  There should have been arbitration.  If they desire this to be applied different the rules need to be modified.

 

10.2.2 shouldn't apply to number of shots fired (too many or too less), because all the penalties associated with firing shots and shooting stuff (or not) are addressed individually which would include FTSA's.  Not following WSB normally refers to non-shooting related, unusual requirements like opening things, carrying stuff, placing things in locations, or forbidding something.

 

Now, this is where it can get interesting.  When your gun gags in a multi-string stage you are allowed to go fix or replace and attempt the remaining strings at a later time.  What if we had an FTSA on the first string?  Technically we'd have to erase that if they came back an hour later and engaged all targets in string two. 

 

What if we had a target not shot at during the second string which was shot an hour later?  We'd have to recall if all targets and which targets were shot in string one to determine if an FTSA is applicable.  

 

Rabbit hole.

Edited March 25, 2019 by theWacoKid

[DKorn]

Got a reply from Troy:

 

Since a string is a separately timed component of a course of fire, failing to shoot at targets in any given string incurs FTSA penalties.  A stage is a string, by definition.  A string is a separately timed component of a stage, therefore all stage rules apply.

 

Troy

 

If anyone needs it later, I can post exactly how I asked the question in case that matters. 

 

I’m still not convinced that this makes sense since it seems to directly contradict 6.1.1, part of which says “Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded, and the targets taped between strings. “

[ima45dv8]

I didn't see that coming.

I'll continue to go by the rulebook until an official publication of that interpretation is made. 

[DKorn]

21 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

I didn't see that coming.

I'll continue to go by the rulebook until an official publication of that interpretation is made. 

 

Agree that it’s confusing and appears contradictory to the wording of several rules. I emailed Troy back, so maybe we’ll get something official. 

[theWacoKid]

19 minutes ago, ima45dv8 said:

I didn't see that coming.

I'll continue to go by the rulebook until an official publication of that interpretation is made. 

 

I did, that's exactly how they interpreted it at Nationals and why I spelled it out the way I did.  I view their interpretation as contradictory to the text as written in the rulebook.

 

A stage can be a single string, sure, but a string is not by definition a stage.  That's where disconnect is.

[Sarge]

43 minutes ago, DKorn said:

Got a reply from Troy:

 

Since a string is a separately timed component of a course of fire, failing to shoot at targets in any given string incurs FTSA penalties.  A stage is a string, by definition.  A string is a separately timed component of a stage, therefore all stage rules apply.

 

Troy

 

If anyone needs it later, I can post exactly how I asked the question in case that matters. 

 

I’m still not convinced that this makes sense since it seems to directly contradict 6.1.1, part of which says “Scores and penalties are recorded following completion of the course of fire, unless the course of fire specifies that they shall be recorded, and the targets taped between strings. “

We talked about this when we shot it yesterday. Pretty much everybody saw it the way Troy laid it out.

[DKorn]

3 minutes ago, Sarge said:

We talked about this when we shot it yesterday. Pretty much everybody saw it the way Troy laid it out.

 

I think the way Troy explained it is the logical interpretation of the spirit of the rules, but there are some wordings that probably need to be clarified to help avoid confusion. 

 

Basically, I would think the penalties make sense, but if the shooter wanted me to find a rule that states they apply to individual strings I couldn’t find one, and they would be able to point out at least a few rules that seem to imply otherwise. 

 

Really, all that would need to change to make this obvious is to change a couple rules to say “course of fire OR string”.