SC Level II match membership requirement

[ZackJones]

Tier 2 can omit Outer Limits and Speed Option. 6 Stage state matches are really fun. With enough daylight you can easily run two flights per day. 3 hours for morning session an hour for lunch and 3 hours for afternoon session. This is with 10 gun squads which seems to be the sweet spot for squadding.

[Thomas H]

On 11/29/2018 at 9:40 AM, firewood said:

 

 

I get it now. I's ok for you to make assumptions about me but it isn't ok for me to make assumptions about you.

 

 

In your OP you state:

 

I'm confused, are you talking about brand new shooters that just happen to be not interested in unsanctioned matches, only sanctioned events or are we talking about shooters that have been there, done that and simply don't sully themselves with tier 1 nonsense? 

 

I have no idea what you are talking about in your first sentence. 

 

As for the last one, I originally said, which you quoted:
"In my area, at least, we have a number of casual shooters who only occasionally shoot matches, but who enjoy SC, and therefore jump at the chance to participate in a Level II match."

 

In other words, we have some people who only shoot one or two matches a year, or have only shot one or two matches, but they were SC and they enjoyed it (Level I local matches).  They jumped at a chance to shoot a Level II match, registered for more than one division (most of them), and enjoying shooting it.  As I said elsewhere, a percentage of them later went on to join USPSA/SCSA.

 

Under the rules that will be enforced next year, those people wouldn't have been able to do that. 

[Thomas H]

22 hours ago, ZackJones said:

Tier 2 can omit Outer Limits and Speed Option. 6 Stage state matches are really fun. With enough daylight you can easily run two flights per day. 3 hours for morning session an hour for lunch and 3 hours for afternoon session. This is with 10 gun squads which seems to be the sweet spot for squadding.

 

That's how we run our Level II match, though we do all 8 stages.  Morning squads have 9-10 guns, afternoon squads have 10-11 guns, everyone shoots the whole match in a half-day with no issues, staff still gets a break in the middle and time to eat lunch.  Works really well.  Do it on Saturday and Sunday both, and you have space to run 280-300 guns without issue and still have everything torn down and awards done by 5pm on Sunday.

 

We had 288 guns signed up last year, until the blizzard.    Hopefully this coming year will be better, and with better weather!

[Hammer002]

On 11/30/2018 at 3:13 PM, Thomas H said:

 

That's how we run our Level II match, though we do all 8 stages.  Morning squads have 9-10 guns, afternoon squads have 10-11 guns, everyone shoots the whole match in a half-day with no issues, staff still gets a break in the middle and time to eat lunch.  Works really well.  Do it on Saturday and Sunday both, and you have space to run 280-300 guns without issue and still have everything torn down and awards done by 5pm on Sunday.

 

We had 288 guns signed up last year, until the blizzard.    Hopefully this coming year will be better, and with better weather!

 

Was still one of best run matches even with the blizzard.  Maybe u get even more help if you advertised the staff shoots in 70 degree weather and match is shot in 9 degree wind chill?  Lol.

 

As for the rest of this, I think the difference in conversation is on the east and south east coasts steel challenge has exploded and level 2 matches are highly competitive.  We have high level competition in our area, just not in the same numbers yet.  You make a good point that the membership rule makes getting involved with more than a monthly match financially less appealing to new shooters who have yet to learn the “value” (as someone put it before) of uspsa membership.  Most of the people you are talking to here can’t fathom a new shooter in a level 2 match, because that’s not what happens in areas trying to have enough spots for all the shooters where we are still looking for enough shooters for all the spots in our area.  Your arguement makes perfect sense for our area, but is lost on the minds of people in other areas where competition is far more fierce.  And then, of course, you are interacting with a few keyboard warriors here who I doubt actually even shoot ANYTHING, and if they did, I would love to have them on a squad.  Show me the numbers you experts!  Lol.

Edited December 2, 2018 by Hammer002

[zzt]

7 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

That's how we run our Level II match, though we do all 8 stages.  Morning squads have 9-10 guns, afternoon squads have 10-11 guns, everyone shoots the whole match in a half-day with no issues, staff still gets a break in the middle and time to eat lunch.  Works really well.  Do it on Saturday and Sunday both, and you have space to run 280-300 guns without issue and still have everything torn down and awards done by 5pm on Sunday.

 

That's pretty much how it is done in our area.  The only difference is they shoot 3 days, squad 10 or 11 and don't finish until 6 PM.  540 guns initially signed up; however, only 493 actually shot.

[firewood]

On ‎11‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 4:10 PM, Thomas H said:

……………..

In other words, we have some people who only shoot one or two matches a year, or have only shot one or two matches, but they were SC and they enjoyed it (Level I local matches).  They jumped at a chance to shoot a Level II match, registered for more than one division (most of them), and enjoying shooting it.  As I said elsewhere, a percentage of them later went on to join USPSA/SCSA.

 

Under the rules that will be enforced next year, those people wouldn't have been able to do that. 

 

Actually they could do it it's really up to them.

 

But I guess now they will have to find something else to enjoy.

[David.Hylton]

I can see both points of view. But, I keep coming back to the same thought: should non-members be allowed to compete for an organization's championship?  This includes going to the prize table and getting plaques. 

 

Membership should be required for championships. In someways it is a perk for the members. It dilutes the match to open it to non-members and it doesn't seem right for members not to be able to shoot because non-members take slots. If it is important to the local non-member shooters, then they should join Steel Challenge.

 

[Pasley]

I let my USPSA membership lapse and will not shoot any matches in the future that require such.  

[ZackJones]

I let my USPSA membership lapse and will not shoot any matches in the future that require such.  

Guess that means I won’t see you in GA next March.

[Thomas H]

On 12/2/2018 at 7:41 PM, firewood said:

But I guess now they will have to find something else to enjoy.

 

Like I said, I personally want to draw people TO the sport, instead of driving them away.

 

On 12/2/2018 at 9:54 PM, David.Hylton said:

I can see both points of view. But, I keep coming back to the same thought: should non-members be allowed to compete for an organization's championship?  This includes going to the prize table and getting plaques. 

 

Membership should be required for championships. In someways it is a perk for the members. It dilutes the match to open it to non-members and it doesn't seem right for members not to be able to shoot because non-members take slots. If it is important to the local non-member shooters, then they should join Steel Challenge.

 

 

At our matches, we still have plenty of room for non-members to shoot.  They aren't kicking out members.  As Hammer said, this may be a difference between the coasts, and where we are.  We just don't have the population base to fill our matches completely full, so it doesn't hurt us any to allow others.

 

The "non-members be allowed to compete for an organization's championship" is a valid point.  I personally don't think it is a big deal for Level II matches, but that is only my personal opinion and it doesn't change the fact that it is a valid point that membership will add value for some people, and it IS specifically a particular organization's championship match.  For me, the fact that that original SC didn't have any memberships, and that up until Jan 2019 we didn't require memberships for Level II ,seems to mean to me that it wasn't an issue in the past---which like I said, makes me wonder what we are gaining from this change.

 

Thank you for bringing up a valid point that hadn't occurred to me. 

 

On 12/2/2018 at 8:36 AM, zzt said:

 

That's pretty much how it is done in our area.  The only difference is they shoot 3 days, squad 10 or 11 and don't finish until 6 PM.  540 guns initially signed up; however, only 493 actually shot.

 

Man, I'd love to expand our match to 3 days and allow people to shoot more divisions. But....at the moment, our numbers just wouldn't support that, and getting staff for a two-day match is already not particularly easy.   In the future though, if we keep growing, hopefully we'll get to that point!

[lawboy]

On 11/26/2018 at 5:14 PM, firewood said:

Simple solution.

 

Thomas H my advice is for you run unsanctioned tier 2 style matches with the same large prize table and a Lewis Class payout! It can be done. This way you can shoot with your buds and keep their personal costs down and they will walk off with all kinds of freebies donated by sponsors that think the same way. 

 

Actually I'm really conflicted on this not because I agree or disagree with you but because you are critical of a rule change that casual shooters who are not satisfied shooting tier 1 matches don't like. What you are asking is this: You dues paying members of USPSA, I have some friends that don't want to support the SCSA sanctioning body but want to shoot in SCSA sanctioned matches. Kindly let USPSA/SCSA know that you think it's unfair for the borg to require those individuals pay dues to shoot in our matches even though they don't think the borg is a worthy cause.

 

Put another way, I have to cough up yearly dues and I have to take yearly tests to be a NROI certified so your friends to shoot in sanctioned matches without having to be members of the sanctioning body. 

Bingo. Well stated. The OP's post struck me the same way. I don't want to pay dues, paint targets, and wait my turn behind your friends who are too cheap to pay the dues. They can go play golf. Yeah, yeah, new shooters ... we do not need them.  

[Scootertheshooter]

I not sure I care either way . I started shooting level 1 matches and got hooked . I’m of the school if there’s a sport your interested in contributing to it is something you just do. If you go to a level 2 match I assume your interested in the sport . I’m not sure what I would want more . A dues paying member or someone that helps paints and helps setup/breakdown . Ultimately both would be nice . Some think they pay a membership fee therefor I don’t need to paint. The fact is for this sport to continue to grow all needs to happen . I don’t think it’s too much $ a year or if able to paint /setup and or break down to ask. In the end I just appear to be babbling [emoji41]


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[Thomas H]

13 hours ago, lawboy said:

Bingo. Well stated. The OP's post struck me the same way. I don't want to pay dues, paint targets, and wait my turn behind your friends who are too cheap to pay the dues. They can go play golf. Yeah, yeah, new shooters ... we do not need them.  

 

 

 

[lawboy]

8 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

 

 

Serious.  I am out west, we do not have a shortage of shooters. To me, level 1 is for casual lookie loos, newbies, etc. Level 2 and up, pony up, commit, or go do something else. Just my view. 

[Thomas H]

On 12/7/2018 at 9:36 PM, lawboy said:

Serious.  I am out west, we do not have a shortage of shooters. To me, level 1 is for casual lookie loos, newbies, etc. Level 2 and up, pony up, commit, or go do something else. Just my view. 

 

This was in response to lawboy's original comment of:  "I don't want to pay dues, paint targets, and wait my turn behind your friends who are too cheap to pay the dues. They can go play golf. Yeah, yeah, new shooters ... we do not need them."

 

Interesting viewpoint, since non-members pay the same match fees (which support the sport), and paint/reset the stages just like everyone else.

 

And like I said, I'm personally for growing the sport by pulling in more people.  But that's me.

[motosapiens]

On 11/28/2018 at 8:41 PM, cferree said:

Using the simpler stages excuse at a Tier 1 doesn't hold water.  How many monthly Tier 1's setup Outer Limits?  The one stage the "casual" competitors have the most problem with and the best chance to get DQ'd on. 

 

 

not sure what the point is here. Our club sets up outer limits every other week (twice a week) for the whole season.

 

I suppose if I couldn't fill up my level 2 match with members.... I would just run a level1 match. Doesn't have to be different in any way except name.

Edited December 10, 2018 by motosapiens

[zzt]

I agree.  Last season, for the vast majority of shoots, the only difference between Level 1 and 2 matches was dedicated ROs and the prize table.  This season I plan to shoot more matches at clubs that only include 4 or 6 official stages. 

 

OL is difficult for clubs that have no open pits.  At a lot of clubs I shoot at, the 50 yard range was designed for rifles and pistols and has overhead baffles almost all the way down.  Ditto the 25, 75 and 100 yard ranges.  So there is a limit to what you can set up at the open end of each range.

[lawboy]

10 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

This was in response to lawboy's original comment of:  "I don't want to pay dues, paint targets, and wait my turn behind your friends who are too cheap to pay the dues. They can go play golf. Yeah, yeah, new shooters ... we do not need them."

 

Interesting viewpoint, since non-members pay the same match fees (which support the sport), and paint/reset the stages just like everyone else.

 

And like I said, I'm personally for growing the sport by pulling in more people.  But that's me.

I am for growing the sport also. But at a level 2 match the growth need to include membership AND participation. Just my opinion. 

[firewood]

21 hours ago, lawboy said:

I am for growing the sport also. But at a level 2 match the growth need to include membership AND participation. Just my opinion. 

 

 

We bring thousands of dollars worth of tackle and years of shooting experience to these matches and some poor soul, friend of Thomas H can only watch from the sidelines while Thomas H himself laments the demise of the sport. Because friends don't want to pay 30 or 40 dollars a year so they will miss out on the experience. Makes me wonder what they will do to fill the void in their lives, it musts to be something that is just 1 click north of free. Skipping rocks down at the river bank? A spirited game of checkers over at Druckers General Store?

[Thomas H]

16 hours ago, firewood said:

 

 

We bring thousands of dollars worth of tackle and years of shooting experience to these matches and some poor soul, friend of Thomas H can only watch from the sidelines while Thomas H himself laments the demise of the sport. Because friends don't want to pay 30 or 40 dollars a year so they will miss out on the experience. Makes me wonder what they will do to fill the void in their lives, it musts to be something that is just 1 click north of free. Skipping rocks down at the river bank? A spirited game of checkers over at Druckers General Store?

 

Since this isn't about me, I'm thinking pretty much all of that is irrelevant to the topic. Not to mention fairly sad as an attempt to make a point.

 

It is also interesting coming from someone who has recorded match scores in SC only for the last two years.    But that would make you a good person to ask:  Were you shooting SC matches prior to that, as a non-member?  Were you already a member of USPSA, so that getting a membership wasn't anything extra once you starting shooting SC?

 

That's a good question for most folks here---I wonder what percentage of us shot USPSA before we started Steel Challenge, and thus already had the membership? 

 

Did anyone start in SC, and immediately get the membership?  If not, how many matches did you shoot before you got it?  Did you shoot any Level II matches first?

 

For those who had the USPSA membership first----how long did you shoot USPSA before getting a membership?  Was "being able to shoot a Level II match" one of the reasons you ended up getting a USPSA membership? 

 

(My expectation is that if people like the sport enough to read and discuss things here, they probably didn't have any issues with spending the money on a membership, because those of use who spend time here tend to be really into the sport.  So it'll be interesting to hear how many people still shot a number of matches before joining.)

 

Anyone have an idea what percentage of their local match entries are from people who aren't members?  Anyone track how many of those folks go on to later get memberships?

 

For me, for example, I got my membership to USPSA after my second local USPSA match  (A52525 at the time).  After USPSA bought SCSA, my club affiliated there also, and I bought that membership, too.  Pretty soon after that, I bought separate Life memberships to both organizations---about 3 months before they said "Hey, membership in one counts for both!" 

 

So for me, since I was already shooting matches, the minute I knew I could shoot affiliated matches, I joined up, even though it was a separate membership fee at the time.

 

But far as I can tell, most shooters who come out to shoot local matches don't necessarily think that way.  (I think it was a great idea to make it a combined USPSA/SCSA membership, because I think it'll pull people more easily into both sports, which is what we want.) 

 

Zach, does USPSA keep track of the number of people who are membership who shoot USPSA-only, or SC-only?  And track those numbers over time?  I wonder how many members only participate in one sport, and if there is any particular demographic where that trend is more obvious.

 

 

[ZackJones]

If you were life in both you should have been upgraded to a B number. At least that is my understanding.

As far as tracking activity we don’t by sport. I lost shot a USPSA handgun match in 2014 and don’t intend to shoot any more going forward. I will say as far as Steel Challenge goes we have seen triple digit growth in 11 of 13 divisions this year.

[Thomas H]

19 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

If you were life in both you should have been upgraded to a B number. At least that is my understanding.

As far as tracking activity we don’t by sport. I lost shot a USPSA handgun match in 2014 and don’t intend to shoot any more going forward. I will say as far as Steel Challenge goes we have seen triple digit growth in 11 of 13 divisions this year.

 

I called them and said "Hey, since this just happened AND I paid for two separate Life memberships..."

And so they gave me a choice:  either a refund for one of the Life membership costs, or upgrade to a B.  At the time, I needed the money more than I needed the "B" prefix. 

 

I'm not surprised about SC---it is a great sport for everyone.  Both for new folks, AND for people who have been shooting awhile.  We get a number of people who start in SC, then get interested in USPSA, and end up doing both.  SC is by far our biggest draw for people new to the shooting sports.

 

I track our shooters locally with regard to what matches they shoot, and how many, but I am not going to assume that our club is representative of anything other than our local area.  It would be interesting to see how many people just stick with one sport, though, and if there is any commonality of demographic.

 

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, Thomas H said:

 

Did anyone start in SC, and immediately get the membership?  If not, how many matches did you shoot before you got it?  Did you shoot any Level II matches first?

 

 

 

I shot steel for several months before I ever heard of USPSA.  I've been shooting steel for 6 years now on a regular basis (once a week for 5 months of the year). I'm not sure I've ever shot a level II match. We have 8-stage matches on the holidays (memorial, july 4th, labor day), but the $20 entry (compared to $3 for the 4 stage weeknight match) means I won't enter a division where I'm not certain to win money. I'm not sure why I should care about level 2 matches. If the entry fee is higher, I'd probably rather just pay less and shoot a level 1.

 

I reiterate my earlier comment.... if you have enough people to fill up your level 2 match to capacity, then who GAF about non-members? OTOH, if you *don't* have enough people to fill it up, then just run it as a level 1 and do everything else the same.

[rowdyb]

Level 2 or greater be a paying member I totally agree with.

 

Most local steel challenge matches and shooters I've seen definitely are of the hobbyist/shoot cheapest match possible/ likely rimfire/ love it because little need to help.

 

Hardly the atmosphere to encourage doing things well, to the rules and building competitors who care about real competition. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by rowdyb

[jkrispies]

Okay, I’ll pitch in.  Level 1 matches are about getting new shooters started and experienced shooters more experience.  If a Level 1 shooter isn’t a USPSA member, so be it.  Level 2 and up matches are about showing your fellow organization members how you stack up in the organization as a body, wnether it be locally, regionally, nationally, or internationally.  These are the “put up or shut up” matches, and this is true in every sport.  Not being a member at these matches simply goes against the purpose of the match.  

 

And, let’s face it, if you’re willing to pay $50+ per gun for typically several guns,  you name it in ammo, a couple hundred for a room, travel expenses, restaurants morning and night... but a $30 or whatever membership fee is going a step too far.  Huh...???

 

Lastly, not being a member at a bigger than usual match is just rude.  Don’t be rude.  

Edited December 13, 2018 by jkrispies