Advice for O.A.L. for multiple guns?

[f150mikey57]

I have 3 9mm guns my wife and I use for competing in USPSA and need some o.a.l. advice. My shadow 2's take a 1.125 and 1.14 so have been loading the shorter length to accommodate both guns but recently got my wife a P120 which is coming in with a max o.a.l. of 1.10. Using 125gr TC bullet and am wondering if I should load to the 1.10 to satisfy all guns or if that would have negative affects due to longer bullet jump on the guns that can take a longer round or if I should just get the shorter throated barrels reamed so they can all take the longer length round. Thanks for any help or advice on this.

[sixsixnine]

1.10 seems really short.

 

If that gun is working well for her, have it reamed.  Otherwise, hock it and buy another Shadow 2.

 

 

 

 

[f150mikey57]

That gun works really well! I am very pleased seeing as how it's a budget level clone. Is there any negative affects to having a barrel reamed or is it as if you couldn't tell anything has been done? 

[Hi-Power Jack]

Doesn't cost much to just ream it.      

[9x45]

I use 1.100" for both my G17s and my JRC carbine.

[IDescribe]

4 hours ago, f150mikey57 said:

I have 3 9mm guns my wife and I use for competing in USPSA and need some o.a.l. advice. My shadow 2's take a 1.125 and 1.14 so have been loading the shorter length to accommodate both guns but recently got my wife a P120 which is coming in with a max o.a.l. of 1.10. Using 125gr TC bullet and am wondering if I should load to the 1.10 to satisfy all guns or if that would have negative affects due to longer bullet jump on the guns that can take a longer round or if I should just get the shorter throated barrels reamed so they can all take the longer length round. Thanks for any help or advice on this.

This might sound wise-ass, when in fact it's just stating the obvious: load them, shoot them, and let us know.  This is really a question only you can answer.  We can't tell you what your guns will do. 

[Guy Neill]

Industry standards allow 9mm Luger to be as long as 1.169".  Your short chamber seems to indicate it world not accept factory ammunition that is on the longer side.  Have you shot it with a variety of factory ammunition?

 

Contact the manufacturer of the gun and see what they have to say.  They should be making a gun that will chamber any factory ammunition.  If it will not, they should fix it so that it will.

 

A TC bullet should not be as picky on the OAL unless the shoulder area is contacting the rifling.  This suggests the chamber is not throated as it should be,  If so, the manufacturer should be willing to re-do the chamber.

 

If you want to be able to use the same ammunition in any of the guns, then it will need to be loaded to the shortest, suffering whatever accuracy loss in the others.  This may not be enough to worry about, but until you test it, no one knows.

 

Reaming (which includes re-cutting the throat)  is changing the chamber, so the resultant accuracy is, as above, not known until you test.

[George16]

I load RMR TC flat points at 1.102-1.104 for my shadow 2, TSO and CM without any problems. When I was load testing, I even tried 1.086-1.095 without any problems either. 

 

Like Idescribe said, just load them up and shoot them.

 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2018 by George16

[IDescribe]

8 hours ago, Guy Neill said:

Industry standards allow 9mm Luger to be as long as 1.169".  Your short chamber seems to indicate it world not accept factory ammunition that is on the longer side.  Have you shot it with a variety of factory ammunition?

 

Contact the manufacturer of the gun and see what they have to say.  They should be making a gun that will chamber any factory ammunition.  If it will not, they should fix it so that it will.

 

This is not correct.  

 

There is no "industry" standard that says guns should be able to accept whatever bullet to an OAL of 1.169.  The standard you are referencing for 9mm Luger sets a MAXIMUM of 1.169 for the cartridge, and that plays out in the magazine.  The magazines of 9mm pistols are designed to accept cartridges of max OAL of 1.169 (with 9mm 1911/2011 pistols being the exception). 

In terms of how long you can load a cartridge, the max OAL varies dramatically based on bullet profile, and it varies a little based on gun manufacturer.   There are many bullets that won't load anywhere near 1.169 in any 9mm pistol. 

The OP is loading his own ammo.  It's up to him to determine his max OAL with every bullet he loads and make sure he stays below that max.
 

 

[RJH]

7 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

 

 

 

There is no "industry" standard that says guns should be able to accept whatever bullet to an OAL of 1.169.  The standard you are referencing for 9mm Luger sets a MAXIMUM of 1.169 for the cartridge, and that plays out in the magazine.  The magazines of 9mm pistols are designed to accept cartridges of max OAL of 1.169 (with 9mm 1911/2011 pistols being the exception). 

In terms of how long you can load a cartridge, the max OAL varies dramatically based on bullet profile, and it varies a little based on gun manufacturer.   There are many bullets that won't load anywhere near 1.169 in any 9mm pistol. 

The OP is loading his own ammo.  It's up to him to determine his max OAL with every bullet he loads and make sure he stays below that max.
 

 

 

 

This right here, I have found bullet profile is the main determining factor in OAL.  And the last sentence quoted is the key

[zzt]

f, if you are really worried about it, call Sig and ask them.  Sig's P210 is known for its accuracy, so I wouldn't do anything to possibly screw that up.   Bullseye shooters want the bullet (usually lead) to be just touching the lands when chambered.  That is said to give the best accuracy.

 

I built a 1911 pistol using a Barsto barrel (45).  The chamber is exactly the right length, but the leade was very, very short.  I had to change the OAL of my bullseye load to accommodate.  It was stunningly accurate.  I wanted to use the same OAL as my other bullseye gun, plus I wanted to be able to shoot TC bullets at 'normal' OAL.  I had the throat reamed.  Now everything fits and works, but bullseye accuracy suffered a little.  That's okay, because I built the gun for competitions other than bullseye.  The reaming was done by a competent gunsmith, using a lathe and a Clymer reamer.  The chamber was not lengthened in the process.

 

Try the 1.100" load in your CZs.  If you don't have any feeding issues, you can decide what to do.  I would get the 1.114" CZ throated so the same, longer OAL could be used in both.  If your wife is shooting the P210 in something that requires bullseye accuracy, develop a load specifically for it and leave it alone.  If a 2" group at 25 yards is good enough for her, have it throated also.

[Guy Neill]

I agree that it is an ammunition specification.  And there are some guns that are made with a particular ammunition in mind, or restrictions because of the magazine  (usually).  I don't tend to think this gun is one of them.  There is a specification for the chamber dimensions for test barrels.  Whether or not the gunmakers follow it, I can't say, but I expect more do than don't.

 

Most people do not reload.  Thus, it seems odd to produce a gun that will not accept factory ammunition (assuming it will not accept factory ammunition).

 

There have been instances where guns left the factory lacking any throating.  Maybe not the situation here, but not being able to take ammunition loaded to something like 1.150". if not the full 1.169" seems strange.

 

Still, it's his gun and if he is good with loading all his ammunition short, no problem.  I have seen situations where a competitor had to use factory ammunition in a match for one reason or another, and that may not be possible here - or maybe it does take factory.

 

It's the owner's choice.

[f150mikey57]

Thanks for all the input everybody. To clarify some things it is a tristar p120 (sp01 shadow clone) not a sig but that really doesn't change anything and yes i have tried s&b and blazer brass and they both work fine. I Guess I was trying to see if loading short or reaming was a much more obvious choice from some people more experienced than me in this area. I think I am just going to load up some rounds that all guns will accept and as long as accuracy is acceptable in all guns that's what I will stick with. 

[IDescribe]

1 hour ago, Guy Neill said:

  Maybe not the situation here, but not being able to take ammunition loaded to something like 1.150". if not the full 1.169" seems strange.

 

 

 

It's not strange at all.  It's normal.  If you don't load, then you'll never notice it.  Commercially produced hollowpoints, for example, are typically not loaded anywhere near as long as 1.150/1.160 -- because they can't be.  They'll jam into the rifling and hold the pistol out of battery.

The short, not-so-detailed version is that the max OAL of the bullet reflects to some extent how much bullet extends ahead of the shoulder.   Bullets with longer ogives have longer max OALs.   If you take an FMJ-RN, and you determine the max OAL without rifling engagement, and you get 1.160,  then you make an identical bullet except that you chop off .04 from the nose and make an FMJ-FP, that FP is simply going to have a max OAL .04 shorter than it's RN parent -- 1.120.  You can't load it any longer than that because the shoulder is already at the rifling.

It's pretty much that simple.  I can think of a couple of commercially produced JHP that have long-ish OALs, but even those not as long as an FMJ-RN.   JHPs, more than likely the ones you buy, load pretty short.  FPs and JHPs and even some lead RN are simply short stubby bullets that can't be loaded long.

CZ pistols, Tanfoglio, other CZ clones, a few Walthers, and few manufacturers from Eastern Europe produce 9mm pistols that are throated about .03 (give or take) shorter than most American made pistols.   But that does NOT cause them not to be able to handle a significant portion of commercially produced ammo.  I've seen just two or three times where someone has stumbled onto a commercially produced load that a CZ won't take.  Ammo manufacturers load short enough for just about all.

[IDescribe]

I have, can, and will break out the diagrams if you're still confused by it. 

[RJH]

51 minutes ago, f150mikey57 said:

Thanks for all the input everybody. To clarify some things it is a tristar p120 (sp01 shadow clone) not a sig but that really doesn't change anything and yes i have tried s&b and blazer brass and they both work fine. I Guess I was trying to see if loading short or reaming was a much more obvious choice from some people more experienced than me in this area. I think I am just going to load up some rounds that all guns will accept and as long as accuracy is acceptable in all guns that's what I will stick with. 

 

 

IMO you have found the correct answer

[RudyVey]

18 minutes ago, IDescribe said:

 

It's not strange at all.  It's normal.  If you don't load, then you'll never notice it.  Commercially produced hollowpoints, for example, are typically not loaded anywhere near as long as 1.150/1.160 -- because they can't be.  They'll jam into the rifling and hold the pistol out of battery.

The short, not-so-detailed version is that the max OAL of the bullet reflects to some extent how much bullet extends ahead of the shoulder.   Bullets with longer ogives have longer max OALs.   If you take an FMJ-RN, and you determine the max OAL without rifling engagement, and you get 1.160,  then you make an identical bullet except that you chop off .04 from the nose and make an FMJ-FP, that FP is simply going to have a max OAL .04 shorter than it's RN parent -- 1.120.  You can't load it any longer than that because the shoulder is already at the rifling.

It's pretty much that simple.  I can think of a couple of commercially produced JHP that have long-ish OALs, but even those not as long as an FMJ-RN.   JHPs, more than likely the ones you buy, load pretty short.  FPs and JHPs and even some lead RN are simply short stubby bullets that can't be loaded long.

CZ pistols, Tanfoglio, other CZ clones, a few Walthers, and few manufacturers from Eastern Europe produce 9mm pistols that are throated about .03 (give or take) shorter than most American made pistols.   But that does NOT cause them not to be able to handle a significant portion of commercially produced ammo.  I've seen just two or three times where someone has stumbled onto a commercially produced load that a CZ won't take.  Ammo manufacturers load short enough for just about all.

True, I load my PD 124 RN to 1.14 and the JHP 124 to 1.10 -  all work well with Walthers, Glock, Sig and some others. But then, I am just a hobby shooter and do not compete.

[f150mikey57]

20 hours ago, IDescribe said:

I have, can, and will break out the diagrams if you're still confused by it. 

No need I understand how all that works I am just inexperienced on loading to multiple different guns that take different max OAL. Previously I only had my two competition guns to load for but now my wife is competing and that introduced another gun with quite a bit shorter max OAL so I was just curious on advice from other people that may have dealt with the same situation. 

[hjweiss]

I have three Sig Sauer P210 Legends (German Made).  They all require a very short COL.  Using Montana Gold 124 gr. JHP bullets my max COL in these guns (based on "Plunk Testing") is 1.060".

[MikieM]

Here in the U.S. we use SAAMI specs for factory loaded ammo. In Europe they use a different set of dimensions (the name escapes me), but IDescribe is correct. They are somewhat shorter over there. 

Reaming the throat on a Tanfo is no big deal. Patriot Defense does the best job I know of and it's only $39.00 including postage.

CZ's, however, are another story, Their barrels are Nitrited on both the outside and inside. Way too hard for a common steel cutter to ream. If you could find a gunsmith with the correct size carbide reamer you could probably get it done, but the price would certainly be much higher.

Edited October 30, 2018 by MikieM