Let's play "Which Penalty?" (Production Start Position Question)

[motosapiens]

23 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

This is one of the situations It is actually more the RO's responsibility than the shooter's because there is a responsibility for the RO to ensure the shooter is in compliance with not only his division, but the stage description before starting him.  

 

it's the ROs job to note if the shooter is not in compliance with his division requirements. It's not generally the RO's responsibility to coach and correct the shooter on those requirements (although troy did ask us at one major to not be dicks about minor issues with holster position, just get them to fix it and drive on).

[ATLDave]

remind the shooter that it's an unloaded start and reissue the "Make Ready" command...

Yep, that’s what I do, too. Seems like telling the production shooter to lower his/her hammer is similarly appropriate.


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[ATLDave]

I tell them “this is an unloaded start”

Yes. Same here.


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[HalfBastard]

On 7/28/2018 at 7:27 AM, motosapiens said:

 

it's the ROs job to note if the shooter is not in compliance with his division requirements. It's not generally the RO's responsibility to coach and correct the shooter on those requirements (although troy did ask us at one major to not be dicks about minor issues with holster position, just get them to fix it and drive on).

I wish more people would think like this.  This is how I was taught in my RO seminar - if you can avoid it, do not let the shooter start if they are out of compliance.  It isn't your job to catch people out and send them packing to open - you should be helping them avoid that, if at all possible.

[racerba]

On 7/28/2018 at 7:27 AM, motosapiens said:

 

it's the ROs job to note if the shooter is not in compliance with his division requirements. It's not generally the RO's responsibility to coach and correct the shooter on those requirements (although troy did ask us at one major to not be dicks about minor issues with holster position, just get them to fix it and drive on).

It is the RO's job to NOT start the shooter if they are not in compliance with the start position and handgun ready condition...it is not coaching...

[Prov1x]

So what most are suggesting is that the R.O. ask everyone that comes to the line what division they are shooting so that the R.O. can make sure they are within their division requirements? 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 minutes ago, Prov1x said:

So what most are suggesting is that the R.O. ask everyone that comes to the line what division they are shooting so that the R.O. can make sure they are within their division requirements? 

 

I guess somebody could enter a match that did not have an equipment check and try to get buy with running an open rig in production or something like that. 

 

Real world wise though it is usually obvious except for limited versus limited 10 and major versus minor. Right or wrong their is some level of trust involved. 

[motosapiens]

2 hours ago, racerba said:

It is the RO's job to NOT start the shooter if they are not in compliance with the start position and handgun ready condition...it is not coaching...

 

if it's a case of shooter is loaded but start is specified as unloaded, yeah, you have to have them unload.

 

otoh, if it's a loaded start, and the shooter forgets to load a mag, or forgets to chamber a round, do you need to coach them? I say no. DNROI also says no.

 

And if it's a division requirement, I think it's on the shooter. The wsb start posittion doesn't say hammer down, the division requirements say that.

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Prov1x said:

So what most are suggesting is that the R.O. ask everyone that comes to the line what division they are shooting so that the R.O. can make sure they are within their division requirements? 

 

Many matches line everyone up before the first stage and do an equipment check before first shot fired.

[Hammer002]

Just now, motosapiens said:

 

if it's a case of shooter is loaded but start is specified as unloaded, yeah, you have to have them unload.

 

otoh, if it's a loaded start, and the shooter forgets to load a mag, or forgets to chamber a round, do you need to coach them? I say no. DNROI also says no.

 

And if it's a division requirement, I think it's on the shooter. The wsb start posittion doesn't say hammer down, the division requirements say that.

 

I think you are violating Troy's rule

[motosapiens]

Just now, Hammer002 said:

 

I think you are violating Troy's rule

 

I don't think so. 

[DKorn]

36 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

I think you are violating Troy's rule

 

Is this the “DBAD” rule? In my mind that’s basically rule #3 of ROing:

 

#1 safety

#2 competitive equity / fairness / follow the rules

#3 DBAD 

[motosapiens]

10 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Is this the “DBAD” rule? In my mind that’s basically rule #3 of ROing:

 

#1 safety

#2 competitive equity / fairness / follow the rules

#3 DBAD 

 

I agree, and coaching shooters about division requirements may affect competitive equity.... other than the specific guidance troy gave about minor issues with holster or mag pouch position.

 

[DKorn]

1 minute ago, motosapiens said:

 

I agree, and coaching shooters about division requirements may affect competitive equity.... other than the specific guidance troy gave about minor issues with holster or mag pouch position.

 

 

Yeah, this one’s borderline. At a major match it’s iffy whether or not you should say something. At a local, with a newer shooter, I’d definitely say something. 

 

[motosapiens]

18 minutes ago, DKorn said:

 

Yeah, this one’s borderline. At a major match it’s iffy whether or not you should say something. At a local, with a newer shooter, I’d definitely say something. 

 

 

Yeah, at a local, it is imho a whole different thing. coaching is encouraged at locals, and in particular it helps newer shooters learn faster, have fun, and get more involved.

[Gary Stevens]

3 hours ago, Prov1x said:

So what most are suggesting is that the R.O. ask everyone that comes to the line what division they are shooting so that the R.O. can make sure they are within their division requirements? 

 

Short answer no. However, using your powers of observation if a shooter has their equipment in a location that indicates a particular division, but their gun is not in compliance with that division, a simple question could be in order.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Gary Stevens

[matteekay]

13 minutes ago, Gary Stevens said:

 

Short answer no. However, using your powers of observation if a shooter has their equipment in a location that indicates a particular division, but their gun is not in compliance with that division, a simple question could be in order.

 

Yup, that's how we arrived in this particular quandary. 

 

I figured we were going roundabout enough with the conversation to just reach out to NROI directly. Their response:

 

- Don't start the shooter per 8.2.1. Not sure why we kept quoting every rule except for the one that literally calls out division requirements, lol.

- If the shooter refuses to comply, you technically have grounds for a DQ under 10.6

 

It's been mentioned a few times but I think a somewhat gentler approach is acceptable at the club level with a new shooter. Much as I looooooooove DQ'ing people (sarcasm).

[Sarge]

Tried to say last week hammer must be down to start?

[mwray]

 
Yup, that's how we arrived in this particular quandary. 
 
I figured we were going roundabout enough with the conversation to just reach out to NROI directly. Their response:
 
- Don't start the shooter per 8.2.1. Not sure why we kept quoting every rule except for the one that literally calls out division requirements, lol.
- If the shooter refuses to comply, you technically have grounds for a DQ under 10.6
 
It's been mentioned a few times but I think a somewhat gentler approach is acceptable at the club level with a new shooter. Much as I looooooooove DQ'ing people (sarcasm).

If they use words like “ I refuse” the gentle approach has sailed

[matteekay]

4 minutes ago, Sarge said:

Tried to say last week hammer must be down to start?

 

A few people did. I think JAFO was the first to actually cite the rule (useful in these situations).

 

Anyhow, live and learn, which is preferable to living and not learning (which makes for a crappy RO).

[racerba]

5 hours ago, motosapiens said:

otoh, if it's a loaded start, and the shooter forgets to load a mag, or forgets to chamber a round, do you need to coach them? I say no. DNROI also says no.

Correct, you do not need to tell (coach) them.  

 

And if it's a division requirement, I think it's on the shooter. The wsb start posittion doesn't say hammer down, the division requirements say that.

The WSB Does say hammer down - indirectly.  It says gun loaded per 8.2 which defines division requirement.

[motosapiens]

3 hours ago, racerba said:

Correct, you do not need to tell (coach) them.  

 

The WSB Does say hammer down - indirectly.  It says gun loaded per 8.2 which defines division requirement.

 

 

 

but...... what if the wsb says 'loaded' (like most do)? what if you forget to load? Am I only supposed to coach the shooter about certain things in 8.2? this is all very confusing....

[Sarge]

31 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

 

 

 

but...... what if the wsb says 'loaded' (like most do)? what if you forget to load? Am I only supposed to coach the shooter about certain things in 8.2? this is all very confusing....

USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014 Edition

8.1

Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in

the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the writ-

ten stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must

not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of

the handgun.

[motosapiens]

14 minutes ago, Sarge said:

USPSA Handgun Competition Rules, February 2014 Edition

8.1

Handgun Ready Conditions

The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in

the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the writ-

ten stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must

not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of

the handgun.

 

Ok, so we get a specific exemption from our required coaching for that. What about if he forgets his mags? what if he has a mag on his magnet in production? do I coach him to remove it?

 

It says right there in the above quoted rule that  'the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun....... apparently unless he leaves his hammer cocked, in which case the RO has to coach him how to comply with division requirements......  very confusing.....

[Sarge]

2 hours ago, motosapiens said:

 

Ok, so we get a specific exemption from our required coaching for that. What about if he forgets his mags? LOCAL, YES. MAJOR, NO. what if he has a mag on his magnet in production? LOCAL, YES. MAJOR, NO.

 

It says right there in the above quoted rule that  'the competitor is always responsible for the handling of the handgun....... apparently unless he leaves his hammer cocked, in which case the RO has to coach him how to comply with division requirements......  very confusing.....NOT TO ME.