Match DQ Fair or Not?

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, ZackJones said:

mark those as DNF. After we (USPSA) finish our discussion I'll let everyone know the outcome. 

 

 

Zack, would that then submit the stages for the other gun (RFRO in our example) previous to the DNF (DQ of other gun causing failure to finish) for classification?  In the scenario I proposed, I supported it, because he was finished.  If its still halfway through the day and its a DQ, then its probably fair to actually DQ both guns in the flight.  I dunno, just my opinion speaking.  Sure are a lot of angles to this.  Prob have to closely take into consideration how it affects event outcome, i.e. overall/division scores.  With a DNF, someone could have shot seven stages with the RFRO and DQed with the PCCO on the seventh stage.  Even with the DNF, the competitor could still win the RFRO division, or worse, overall, with an unfinished score for the day if not DQed.  Might be some negativity giving someone a plaque with an unfinished score due to DQ who ADed over the berm or otherwise DQed.

 

Edit:  I guess I dont know, does a DNF give 30 seconds to the unfinished score?  Just wondering now that you mentioned it.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Hammer002

[ZackJones]

28 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Zack, would that then submit the stages for the other gun (RFRO in our example) previous to the DNF (DQ of other gun causing failure to finish) for classification?  In the scenario I proposed, I supported it, because he was finished.  If its still halfway through the day and its a DQ, then its probably fair to actually DQ both guns in the flight.  I dunno, just my opinion speaking.  Sure are a lot of angles to this.  Prob have to closely take into consideration how it affects event outcome, i.e. overall/division scores.  With a DNF, someone could have shot seven stages with the RFRO and DQed with the PCCO on the seventh stage.  Even with the DNF, the competitor could still win the RFRO division, or worse, overall, with an unfinished score for the day if not DQed.  Might be some negativity giving someone a plaque with an unfinished score due to DQ who ADed over the berm or otherwise DQed.

 

Edit:  I guess I dont know, does a DNF give 30 seconds to the unfinished score?  Just wondering now that you mentioned it.

 

This is what I'm working with Mike and Troy on. I think allowing scores to stand up to the point of DQ is the right think to do. 

 

When a competitor is marked as DNF for a stage the maximum string time is used for all strings on that stage so 120 stage time for everything but Outer Limits which will get a 90 second stage time. 

 

As an aside I encourage RO's to DNF competitors that aren't present when the stage is shot. Once I see two or 3 DNF's for the same person I'll usually mark him as deleted on the master tablet. When I'm at a range that has WiFI on the bays I also encourage the RO's to "sync with master" prior to starting a new stage. By doing so competitors that have been dropped from the master will be removed from the scoring tablet.

 

[Hammer002]

9 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

 

This is what I'm working with Mike and Troy on. I think allowing scores to stand up to the point of DQ is the right think to do. 

 

When a competitor is marked as DNF for a stage the maximum string time is used for all strings on that stage so 120 stage time for everything but Outer Limits which will get a 90 second stage time. 

 

As an aside I encourage RO's to DNF competitors that aren't present when the stage is shot. Once I see two or 3 DNF's for the same person I'll usually mark him as deleted on the master tablet. When I'm at a range that has WiFI on the bays I also encourage the RO's to "sync with master" prior to starting a new stage. By doing so competitors that have been dropped from the master will be removed from the scoring tablet.

 

 

As long as the DNF applied the maximum, putting them out of the running for overall/division placement, absolutely gets my vote for getting the classification scores for stages finished.  How would you handle it if it were, again, after the last stage of the match?  They would still be eligible to win?

 

I think our concern is if they show up later and shoot, having a possible conflict in sync if a different tablet is used.  Thought it easier on the MD, but definitely a good way to do it if everyone on same page.  And, lol, WIFI on the range sure would be nice!

Edited May 15, 2018 by Hammer002

[RJH]

1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Yes. 

 

I should have been more specific, was that a level 2 or up USPSA match?  I realize we are in the steel challenge forum, but I know there is some crossover

[IHAVEGAS]

13 minutes ago, RJH said:

 

I should have been more specific, was that a level 2 or up USPSA match?  I realize we are in the steel challenge forum, but I know there is some crossover

 

Next time I see the guy, probably this weekend I will confirm details. I think I have them but it is good to be sure, I have slept since he related the events. Am sure it was a higher level match and I think it was steel, when I have details I think we should be able to see both the dq and the finished score on practiscore or equivalent. 

[ZackJones]

29 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

As long as the DNF applied the maximum, putting them out of the running for overall/division placement, absolutely gets my vote for getting the classification scores for stages finished.  How would you handle it if it were, again, after the last stage of the match?  They would still be eligible to win?

 

I think our concern is if they show up later and shoot, having a possible conflict in sync if a different tablet is used.  Thought it easier on the MD, but definitely a good way to do it if everyone on same page.  And, lol, WIFI on the range sure would be nice!

 

DNF is almost as bad as DQ when it comes to overall standing. I don't understand your question about about handling it after the last stage of the match. Can you clarify that for me please.

 

WiFi at the range is actually easier than you'd think. I'm working with a small business owner from North Carolina that's also a USPSA competitor that's created "WiFi in a box." It's battery powered WiFi Access Point. I used it at Area 6 USPSA match to pull scores and sync with stage tablets. I'm doing a write up on it for Front Sight magazine. 

 

[zzt]

Zack, if SC rules DQ you for an Event only, does the MD have the authority to state you are DQ'd from the entire match, regardless of the number of events that constitute the match?

[motosapiens]

6 hours ago, stick said:

I'm just trying to gauge everyone's feelings on the rule and elicit feedback.   

my feeling is that you should not break safety rules. It's supposed to suck for you when you break them. The alternative is people potentially getting hurt or killed.

 

Avoiding getting dq'd should always be in your mind when practicing, shooting, visualizing, etc.... That won't stop the occasional random screwball thing like a holster failure, but it will prevent most dq's, and enhance everyone's safety.

[stick]

2 minutes ago, motosapiens said:

my feeling is that you should not break safety rules. It's supposed to suck for you when you break them. The alternative is people potentially getting hurt or killed.

 

Avoiding getting dq'd should always be in your mind when practicing, shooting, visualizing, etc.... That won't stop the occasional random screwball thing like a holster failure, but it will prevent most dq's, and enhance everyone's safety.

I totally agree.  Again, I'm just trying to get some good conversation going by gauging everyone's feelings for the rule.

[ZackJones]

4 hours ago, zzt said:

Zack, if SC rules DQ you for an Event only, does the MD have the authority to state you are DQ'd from the entire match, regardless of the number of events that constitute the match?

 

Matches are contested within the event. So if you DQ, regardless which of the 4 matches you're currently participating in, you're done for the remainder of the event. 

[Hammer002]

8 hours ago, ZackJones said:

I don't understand your question about about handling it after the last stage of the match. Can you clarify that for me please.

 

 

Sticking with our example.  Competitor shoots and completes 8th stage with rfro.  Same flight, later comes to line with pcco.  Completes 8th stage, however has AD at ULSC.  I think I understood your feeling to be the pcco division would be a DQ.  However the rfro division for the same competitor would stand. If had occurred earlier in the match, the remainder of the rfro stages would be DNF, however in this case, he completed all the stages, making the rfro DNF inconsequential.  So, theoretically, the rfro scores from the same flight the DQ occurred in could win the division or even high overall.  Could be a pretty negative situation from the perspective of the other competitors.  Might be why a DQ offense may need to disqualify all guns for that flight and any after, leaving only completed guns in completed flights eligible for win.  Several MDs I have talked to would DQ the competitor from the entire event, no matter what has been completed cause they don't want to hand over a plaque to someone that DQed.  I dunno.  Just throwing thoughts out there.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Hammer002

[ZackJones]

3 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Sticking with our example.  Competitor shoots and completes 8th stage with rfro.  Same flight, later comes to line with pcco.  Completes 8th stage, however has AD at ULSC.  I think I understood your feeling to be the pcco division would be a DQ.  However the rfro division for the same competitor would stand. If had occurred earlier in the match, the remainder of the rfro stages would be DNF, however in this case, he completed all the stages, making the rfro DNF inconsequential.  So, theoretically, the rfro scores from the same flight the DQ occurred in could win the division or even high overall.  Could be a pretty negative situation from the perspective of the other competitors.  Might be why a DQ offense may need to disqualify all guns for that flight and any after, leaving only completed guns in completed flights eligible for win.  Several MDs I have talked to would DQ the competitor from the entire event, no matter what has been completed cause they don't want to hand over a plaque to someone that DQed.  I dunno.  Just throwing thoughts out there.

 

Let's look at it chronologically.

 

Competitor shoots all 7 stages with both rifles and is well. 

Stage 8 competitor shoots RFRO. Goes through ULSC process. RO confirms it's clear. RFRO is flagged and bagged. Competitor taps Accept on tablet. RO calls "Range is Clear" which signals the end of the course of fire. It also means the competitor has completed the entire Rimfire Rifle match with that firearm. There's no way he can be DQ'd in RFRO because he has shot a complete match. He is no longer competing in two matches at the same time.  No one has a valid complaint about his RFRO scores. He shot a complete match. He's entitled to any awards/prizes he may receive based on his placement within the match. 

 

Other competitors shoot the stage and then he comes back around and has DQ. From that point forward he's done. He would be marked DQ on the tablet on that stage and would not be permitted to shoot any other guns in the event. This is exactly what happened to my wife at US Steel Shoot this year. She shot 7 stages got to our last stage and had an AD while making ready. She was marked DQ on that stage and was done for the rest of the event.

[Hammer002]

5 hours ago, ZackJones said:

 

Let's look at it chronologically.

 

Competitor shoots all 7 stages with both rifles and is well. 

Stage 8 competitor shoots RFRO. Goes through ULSC process. RO confirms it's clear. RFRO is flagged and bagged. Competitor taps Accept on tablet. RO calls "Range is Clear" which signals the end of the course of fire. It also means the competitor has completed the entire Rimfire Rifle match with that firearm. There's no way he can be DQ'd in RFRO because he has shot a complete match. He is no longer competing in two matches at the same time.  No one has a valid complaint about his RFRO scores. He shot a complete match. He's entitled to any awards/prizes he may receive based on his placement within the match. 

 

Other competitors shoot the stage and then he comes back around and has DQ. From that point forward he's done. He would be marked DQ on the tablet on that stage and would not be permitted to shoot any other guns in the event. This is exactly what happened to my wife at US Steel Shoot this year. She shot 7 stages got to our last stage and had an AD while making ready. She was marked DQ on that stage and was done for the rest of the event.

 

Thank you.  I 110 percent agree with every word.  However, up till now, I have been the only person in know saying it!  lol.  Meant to ask Thomas his opinion when it happened in NE.  He runs such a well ran match.

 

Absolutely agree.  Thanks Zack.

Edited May 16, 2018 by Hammer002

[Thomas H]

5 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

Thank you.  I 110 percent agree with every word.  However, up till now, I have been the only person in know saying it!  lol.  Meant to ask Thomas his opinion when it happened in NE.  He runs such a well ran match.

 

Absolutely agree.  Thanks Zack.

 

Yup, this is the way it goes.

If you have completed a match prior to the DQ, it stands.  The competitor is finished shooting at that time, and any match in the event not yet completed is listed as a DQ.

 

Unfortunate for the other divisions, but that's the rules.  (And I happen to agree it should be that way.  If you DQ, you are done shooting.  That may suck, but....at that moment in time, the competitor isn't safe to be shooting, so the competitor should be stopped.)

[Nimitz]

Ok, since it was my podcast that started this and I've let this run on for a while let me explain why I brought it up ....

 

my problem with the rule the way it stands is that it is in direct conflict with our other rules ... we can't have it both ways.  Our rules need to be consistent ...

 

According to our rules you can't DQ someone "after the fact";  DQs are real-time calls.  You can't DQ someone 20 mins after an infraction because you now think its appropriate.  You either do it when the infraction occurs or there is no DQ.   Unfortunately the 'match DQ rule" violates this.  Ex:  I'm shooting 2 guns on a squad at the same time: I shoot my RFPO gun 1st on my squad on stage 1 - no issues, RO calls "range is clear" which means that unless I do something else with that gun - take it out of its bag & wave it around .... I can't be DQed for that gun ... according to our own rules.  20 mins later I'm called to the line to shoot my RFRO, something happens & I violate a rule & get DQed - FOR THE VIOLATION I JUST COMMITTED WITH THAT GUN.   To now also DQ me for another gun I'm shooting for which I've done nothing wrong, now or in the past, violates our other rules ...

 

One way or another all or rules need to be consistent - particularly when it concerns something like DQs .....

Edited May 19, 2018 by Nimitz

[bigdawgbeav]

On 5/15/2018 at 9:28 PM, ZackJones said:

 

 

 

Other competitors shoot the stage and then he comes back around and has DQ. From that point forward he's done. He would be marked DQ on the tablet on that stage and would not be permitted to shoot any other guns in the event. This is exactly what happened to my wife at US Steel Shoot this year. She shot 7 stages got to our last stage and had an AD while making ready. She was marked DQ on that stage and was done for the rest of the event.

 

It really sucks having to DQ your spouse.  Luckily Donna is a real trooper and wouldn't dream of holding it over your head for the rest of your life!  Although the rest of us might just because it's fun... 

[ZackJones]

One way or another all or rules need to be consistent - particularly when it concerns something like DQs .....

The issue is how should we properly record it in PractiScore. I have used the DQ both entries a number of times. In hindsight I think the more correct way to handle it is to not mark both entries as DQ. Only mark the actual DQ. For the other stages with the gun you didn’t DQ with score those as DNF.

This scoring method is what I plan to use going forward and have been discussing with Mike and Troy. I think they will agree to it going forward.

[ZackJones]

 
It really sucks having to DQ your spouse.  Luckily Donna is a real trooper and wouldn't dream of holding it over your head for the rest of your life!  Although the rest of us might just because it's fun... [emoji16]

I hear about it on a regular basis. .

[Nimitz]

Zack:   the central issue is NOT how we record it in Practiscore .... there is no difference between a 'DNF" or a 'DQ" except that in the former you get to see whatever scores you shot  when the final results are posted.   It does not address the central issue which is - eliminating someone from competition with a gun that they didn't violate any rules - is inappropriate, grossly unfair and not in accordance with our other rules ...

[IHAVEGAS]

On 5/15/2018 at 7:28 AM, RJH said:

 

I should have been more specific, was that a level 2 or up USPSA match?  I realize we are in the steel challenge forum, but I know there is some crossover

 

On 5/15/2018 at 7:48 AM, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Next time I see the guy, probably this weekend I will confirm details.

 

Pro Am steel challenge at Frostproof Florida, 2016 I think, may be off by 1 year. 

 

I think that is a unique set of rules though ???

[ziebart]

IHAVEGAS,

 

I am  not promoting a penance fee. My comparison to it was how ridiculous it would be. I don't think we are that far away from it with some matches and some of the posts here.

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, ziebart said:

IHAVEGAS,

 

I am  not promoting a penance fee. My comparison to it was how ridiculous it would be. I don't think we are that far away from it with some matches and some of the posts here.

 

Got it!

 

My friends penance fee (  ) was $200.00 for the second entry and he had to shoot in a different division. Being a tight s.o.b. , like myself, it served as an effective deterrent. 

[ziebart]

And that right there is the crux of the debate to me. Is a DQ, a deterrent, a punishment, and or a way to prevent future unsafe acts due to the shooter being out of sorts that day?

 

Not saying it can't be all 3 but how a person looks at the why we do it changes how they view it and how to handle it.

[ZackJones]

On 5/19/2018 at 8:40 AM, Nimitz said:

Zack:   the central issue is NOT how we record it in Practiscore .... there is no difference between a 'DNF" or a 'DQ" except that in the former you get to see whatever scores you shot  when the final results are posted.   It does not address the central issue which is - eliminating someone from competition with a gun that they didn't violate any rules - is inappropriate, grossly unfair and not in accordance with our other rules ...

 

Take it up with your Area Director is all I can say. I have tried, obviously unsuccessfully, to get the DQ to be match based instead of event based and I can't get it done.

 

[Scootertheshooter]

Zack:   the central issue is NOT how we record it in Practiscore .... there is no difference between a 'DNF" or a 'DQ" except that in the former you get to see whatever scores you shot  when the final results are posted.   It does not address the central issue which is - eliminating someone from competition with a gun that they didn't violate any rules - is inappropriate, grossly unfair and not in accordance with our other rules ...

I do agree with this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk