Match DQ Fair or Not?

[stick]

I heard a pod cast concerning the Match DQ rule in Steel Challenge.  I would like to hear your thoughts on the rule. What do you think? fair/unfair and why? Should a shooter be DQ'd for both guns?

For Those who are unaware of the rule it's Steel Challenge Rule 8.1

8.1 Disqualifications, General Principles: Competitors who have
been disqualified may not shoot during the remainder of the event. This
includes events that span multiple days. However, completed match
scores will still count. For example, if a competitor shoots a complete
score in Revolver then disqualifies while shooting Single Stack that
competitor’s Revolver score still stands. In the case where the
competitor is competing in two matches simultaneously such as
centerfire pistol and Rimfire pistol matches and the competitor is
disqualified in either match he is automatically disqualified in all matches
in which he is currently competing.

[davsco]

seems reasonable to me.  the dq is supposed to give you a time out to think about what you did and how you can not do it again.  also, the bad act might result from  being tired, distracted, some sort of ailment, etc and continuing to shoot might give another bad result.

 

now, if you're shooting one division one day and another the next, i'd say the two should be independent of each other as you should have had time to figure out how to not do what you did, and/or get over being tired, distracted, ill, etc.

Edited May 14, 2018 by davsco

[zzt]

okay with me as well.  After all it is the same match, even though there are multiple segments on different days.  So a match DQ means for the whole remaining match.

[stick]

42 minutes ago, davsco said:

seems reasonable to me.  the dq is supposed to give you a time out to think about what you did and how you can not do it again.  also, the bad act might result from  being tired, distracted, some sort of ailment, etc and continuing to shoot might give another bad result.

 

now, if you're shooting one division one day and another the next, i'd say the two should be independent of each other as you should have had time to figure out how to not do what you did, and/or get over being tired, distracted, ill, etc.

I agree.  what if you are shooting two guns in different divisions on the same day?  Should you be DQ'd from both?

[stick]

6 minutes ago, zzt said:

okay with me as well.  After all it is the same match, even though there are multiple segments on different days.  So a match DQ means for the whole remaining match.

So what are your thoughts on two guns in the same match.  should they be independent?

[Scootertheshooter]

Ok I'll play, if your shooting 2 divisions , same day say with a shooter between your second division, only the gun you were shooting at the time of the violation should be DQ'd. I think you should be able to shoot the other gun . Many reasons for DQ's . Alright let me have it [emoji1]

[stick]

21 minutes ago, Scootertheshooter said:

Ok I'll play, if your shooting 2 divisions , same day say with a shooter between your second division, only the gun you were shooting at the time of the violation should be DQ'd. I think you should be able to shoot the other gun . Many reasons for DQ's . Alright let me have it

I agree.  I think the guns should be independent of each other.  Let's say you're at a level 2 or level 3 match shooting two guns.  Registration is roughly $100 per gun.  You DQ on one of your guns, you're now out $200.

[davsco]

54 minutes ago, stick said:

I agree.  what if you are shooting two guns in different divisions on the same day?  Should you be DQ'd from both?

guess i didn't say it clearly.  should be a dq for the entire day, so if one is shooting two divisions in one day, dq for both.  again, many reasons for dq, and you should get a little time off to think about and correct it.  again if you're tired, sick, distracted or the like, need some time to recover from it.

[RJH]

2 minutes ago, davsco said:

guess i didn't say it clearly.  should be a dq for the entire day, so if one is shooting two divisions in one day, dq for both.  again, many reasons for dq, and you should get a little time off to think about and correct it.  again if you're tired, sick, distracted or the like, need some time to recover from it.

I looks like that is the way the rules are wrote too.  It says simultaneously, so if they were shot consecutively it would appear that you may not be DQed from both.  I am not familiar with steel challenge though so not sure.    However  if it is a deemed as a double DQ, the rules are available before the match, so if someone doesn't like them, they don't have to go.  I always cringe when some starts talking fairness, when what we should be after is competitive equity

[IHAVEGAS]

35 minutes ago, stick said:

I agree.  I think the guns should be independent of each other.  Let's say you're at a level 2 or level 3 match shooting two guns.  Registration is roughly $100 per gun.  You DQ on one of your guns, you're now out $200.

 

Friend of mine planned his vacation around a big match 1000+ miles away. Entry fee was trivial when you consider travel & food & lodging & paying for his family to do something fun while he shot. He got dq'd very early on a 180 challenge (if you say 180 trap on Enos you never hear the end of it) that got several other people the first day, by the second day the word was out & everybody got cautioned about it one way or another.  

 

They let him enter in a different division (and pay again) & shoot the match, I think that was a good way to go. 

[RJH]

4 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said:

 

Friend of mine planned his vacation around a big match 1000+ miles away. Entry fee was trivial when you consider travel & food & lodging & paying for his family to do something fun while he shot. He got dq'd very early on a 180 challenge (if you say 180 trap on Enos you never hear the end of it) that got several other people the first day, by the second day the word was out & everybody got cautioned about it one way or another.  

 

They let him enter in a different division (and pay again) & shoot the match, I think that was a good way to go. 

 

 

Was that a level 2 or up match?

[davsco]

similar circumstance for me.  buddy and i drove some 12 hours to a match ("outlaw" steel) and we each entered in two divisions (separate days for each).  he dq'd early in first day/division (also a somewhat easy 180 to break) but got to shoot the next day/2nd division.  that makes sense to me, you've had an overnite to think about and fix what you did wrong or what might have been wrong with you.

[Nathanb]

Match dq. Not gun dq. What would stop people from trying to buy in with a new gun as well

[outerlimits]

yer right, match dq, not dq for the day or the weapon.

[ziebart]

If you can buy in a second gun or division after a match  DQ then Nathanb is right, what is stopping you? At that point why not just allow them to rebuy their match fee in the current division? It would be just like the Catholic Church and buying indulgences. Why pay your penance by sitting on the bench when you can literally buy your way out of a problem?

[ZackJones]

Let's clarify a couple of things. DQ's under Steel Challenge are EVENT DQ's. We do not have match DQ's. This is an extremely important distinction. 

 

Using WSSC as an example:

 

Event - 2018 WSSC

Match #1 - Centerfire Pistol

Match #2 - Rimfire Pistol

Match #3 - Rimfire Rifle

Match #4 - PCC

 

Scenario #1 - Competitor shoots all 8 stages during the morning flight. After lunch he AD's while making ready. He is shooting two guns in the event.

Ruling: Completed scores from the morning stand. Scores from afternoon are tossed due to DQ.

 

Scenario #2 - Competitor is scheduled to shoot 3 guns in the event. Wednesday morning, afternoon and Thursday morning. Competitor DQ's during Wednesday morning session. 

Ruling: Scores from Wednesday morning are tossed and competitor is NOT permitted to shoot Wednesday afternoon nor Thursday morning. Competitor can not buy his way back into the match either.

Scenario #3 - Competitor is shooting RFRO and PCCO during same session. After completing his run in RFRO he comes back to the line with PCCO and get's DQ'd. 

Ruling: Competitor is not permitted to continue shooting either firearm. He's done for the entire event. 

 

That's how the rules work. DQ is extremely costly penalty in our sport.

 

[rowdyb]

You dq a person, not a gun or a division. Doesn't matter how many divisions they are in, over how many days. Once a dq happens you as a shooter are done.

[RJH]

58 minutes ago, ZackJones said:

Let's clarify a couple of things. DQ's under Steel Challenge are EVENT DQ's. We do not have match DQ's. This is an extremely important distinction. 

 

Using WSSC as an example:

 

Event - 2018 WSSC

Match #1 - Centerfire Pistol

Match #2 - Rimfire Pistol

Match #3 - Rimfire Rifle

Match #4 - PCC

 

Scenario #1 - Competitor shoots all 8 stages during the morning flight. After lunch he AD's while making ready. He is shooting two guns in the event.

Ruling: Completed scores from the morning stand. Scores from afternoon are tossed due to DQ.

 

Scenario #2 - Competitor is scheduled to shoot 3 guns in the event. Wednesday morning, afternoon and Thursday morning. Competitor DQ's during Wednesday morning session. 

Ruling: Scores from Wednesday morning are tossed and competitor is NOT permitted to shoot Wednesday afternoon nor Thursday morning. Competitor can not buy his way back into the match either.

Scenario #3 - Competitor is shooting RFRO and PCCO during same session. After completing his run in RFRO he comes back to the line with PCCO and get's DQ'd. 

Ruling: Competitor is not permitted to continue shooting either firearm. He's done for the entire event. 

 

That's how the rules work. DQ is extremely costly penalty in our sport.

 

 

 

So any completed matches the scores would stand after a dq and any concurrent/subsequent matches would be tossed, correct?  If so I think it is nice that completed matches don't get tossed as well

[ZackJones]

 
 
So any completed matches the scores would stand after a dq and any concurrent/subsequent matches would be tossed, correct?  If so I think it is nice that completed matches don't get tossed as well

Correct. Completed scores stand and you can walk prize table or get plaque or whatever for that completed score.

[ima45dv8]

Our safety record in these games is beyond 'pretty damn good' for a reason.

We stop people who have exhibited that, for whatever reason, their head isn't fully in it right now. We have to. To allow them to continue would be negligent. 

 

We still love 'em. We want them to come back next time after absorbing the magnitude of their actions. But, to allow them to continue shooting that day would invite a level of liability that the organization(s) could not bear.

 

 

[Hammer002]

5 hours ago, ZackJones said:

 

Correct. Completed scores stand and you can walk prize table or get plaque or whatever for that completed score.

 

 

6 hours ago, ZackJones said:

 

Scenario #3 - Competitor is shooting RFRO and PCCO during same session. After completing his run in RFRO he comes back to the line with PCCO and get's DQ'd. 

Ruling: Competitor is not permitted to continue shooting either firearm. He's done for the entire event. 

 

 

I think I know the answer, but interested in hearing it "semi - officially" cause I am fully capable of being wrong.  I

 

n scenario 3 - what if the DQ occurs with an AD during UNSC on the PCCO at the end of the last stage of the event?  Meaning, no more shooting is to take place.  Do the RFRO scores stand for the event in the same flight because that gun was complete?  Do the PCCO scores stand because shooting was complete? (Not even making this up, happened right in front of me as an RO at a local match)

 

I'll throw out what I thought - I explained the RFRO score should stand and it would be up to the MD what to do with the PCCO score.  (These werent the actual divisions, but just for conversation ease)  The MD said the person's entire match (event) would be considered DQ and nothing counted.  He went on to explain even at a big event everything previous would be tossed out.  I knew he was wrong about that, but thought he had a bit of discretion as to how to handle at least the PCCO.  Had it been my decision, I would have DQed the PCCO and let the RFRO stand for the event.  ???

 

As to OP, I believe the rule is written exactly as it should be.  The PERSON is disqualified and therefore shoots no more in the event.  Anything not completed at that time is done.  The above example of money spent, etc happens at every major match there is.  Hell, some of them have international expenses.  If you DQ, you are done shooting.  I think its nice they let your finished scores stand though.

Edited May 15, 2018 by Hammer002

[stick]

1 hour ago, Hammer002 said:

 

 

 

 

As to OP, I believe the rule is written exactly as it should be.  The PERSON is disqualified and therefore shoots no more in the event.  Anything not completed at that time is done.  The above example of money spent, etc happens at every major match there is.  Hell, some of them have international expenses.  If you DQ, you are done shooting.  I think its nice they let your finished scores stand though.

I'm just trying to gauge everyone's feelings on the rule and elicit feedback.   

[ZackJones]

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

 

I think I know the answer, but interested in hearing it "semi - officially" cause I am fully capable of being wrong.  I

 

n scenario 3 - what if the DQ occurs with an AD during UNSC on the PCCO at the end of the last stage of the event?  Meaning, no more shooting is to take place.  Do the RFRO scores stand for the event in the same flight because that gun was complete?  Do the PCCO scores stand because shooting was complete? (Not even making this up, happened right in front of me as an RO at a local match).

 

I'll be happy to toss out my 2 cents in a "semi-official" manner :). In the scenario above the RFRO scores would stand because the competitor had completed all stages in the Rimfire Rifle match. He would be DQ'd in the PCC match per rule 8.2.1 and those scores would be tossed. 

 

I discussed the topic with Ken a bit after listening to the podcast and I'm in the process of getting clarification from Mike and Troy regarding how we should record this in PractiScore. In the past I've had both guns marked as DQ'd even though the competitor only DQ's with one of them. Hindsight, being 20-20 and all, I think I scored it wrong. The better way to handle it, in my opinion right now, is instead of marking both guns as DQ is to DQ only the gun in which the DQ happened and for the remaining stages mark those as DNF. After we (USPSA) finish our discussion I'll let everyone know the outcome. 

 

Good discussion going on here - thanks for everyone's feedback. 

 

[IHAVEGAS]

10 hours ago, RJH said:

 

 

Was that a level 2 or up match?

 

Yes. 

[IHAVEGAS]

9 hours ago, ziebart said:

If you can buy in a second gun or division after a match  DQ then Nathanb is right, what is stopping you? At that point why not just allow them to rebuy their match fee in the current division? It would be just like the Catholic Church and buying indulgences. Why pay your penance by sitting on the bench when you can literally buy your way out of a problem?

 

We are not in the penance business, if the sport ever goes there I quit. 

 

The only goal is to establish what deterrent is needed for safety, if paying in a second match fee is a suitable deterrent I'm all for it. I could also go with 'done for the day' based on the concept that perhaps the shooter does not have his head in the game that day.