ES, New versus very used mixed brass?

[RickT]

In trying out ultra-soft loads with Sport Pistol I've seen ES>100 fps.  I know some of this is coming from the brass since we recover all of our brass except at matches and there is no telling how often it has been fired.  Now I'm sure the ES will still be large, but going forward I'm going to make up 10 or so rounds with new brass to better understand the effect of my heavily used, mixed brass mix.  Can anyone who has tried this weight in?  Obviously, a low ES load won't see much of a difference.  In a related note will have a cracked case in every 200 rounds or so reload 115 or 124 grain, 0.356 coated bullets.

[kyky]

I cycle through about 15000 use brass, so I rarely see too many bad one's, and keep on reloading them again and again. I usually stop reloading a specific case when it becomes defective, and most of the time a crack will be a clear sign of early retirement .

[Steve RA]

Try reloading 10 of just one brand and see how that compares with the new and the many times used mixed brass.

[MemphisMechanic]

1 hour ago, RickT said:

ultra-soft loads

 I've seen ES>100 fps.

 

This is normal. Powders don’t burn consistently until you get enough of the case volume filled. Light loads burn erratically.

 

Quote

...I'm going to make up 10 or so rounds with new brass

 

Obviously, a low ES load won't see much of a difference. 

 

Yep. See above. Try bringing you load up into the middle of the book min/max and see if your ES stabilizes... then bring your charge weight down until you see where it begins to open up.

 

Also? Don’t worry about ES as long as the load groups well.

Edited April 20, 2018 by MemphisMechanic

[RickT]

I'm not really worried about ES shooting steel challenge as we do, but I'm lousy shooting from any sort of a rest.  I'll bring some white targets tomorrow;  Can't line up the blades very well on black splatter targets.  The 115gr velocity was running from 850 to 950, the lower end represented by 2 outliers.

[zzt]

I've never felt the need.  My 40sw loads all have SDs in the 4.8 to 7.2 range.  I pay no attention to brass.  I just use it.  I'm about to start loading 9mm minor and major, and I expect the same.

 

I shoot a lot of 45ACP, including for bullseye.  I bought more than a lifetime supply of once fired R-P brass and use it exclusively for bullseye loads.  I'm still on my first 3000, because it just doesn't wear out.  That batch has been reloaded 12 times so far, and the SDs and accuracy are still the same.  For competition, where I'll lose the brass, I use mixed HS.  I cannot tell the difference in accuracy at all.  The competition loads are different than the bullseye loads, but the SDs are still in the 6.0 range.

 

For 9mm major, I'm deciding whether I want to pay 5 or six cents each for processed, once-fired, same head stamp brass.   All the matches I shoot are lost brass, so it adds up.

[IDescribe]

Rick, as I told you in the other thread, you're loads are crazy light with that powder, and you're never going to get consistent velocities.  Now, if you want to test to see the real difference between mixed brass, brass sorted by headstamp, and new brass sorted by headstamp, you can do that, but you're going to need to get your loads up into a consistent range before the differences in cases are going to be visible.  WIth 115gr bullets, seriously, you would need them to be up somewhere in the neighborhood of 1100 feet/sec with that powder, maybe 1125.    At the charge weights you're using, I would bet that you'll get more variation from string to string with the exact same brass than what you get from mixed brass, making it impossible to know what variation is tied to the brass and what's tied to the inherent inconsistency of your loads.  Trying to test the inconsistency of cases with an inherently inconsistent load is a good way to trick yourself.  

In load ranges with efficient burns, I get exceedingly low ES and SD numbers, and I'll tell you that the difference in SD between sorted headstamp and mixed brass is maybe 2?  3?    For ES?  I used to use nothing but Starline for load development.  Extreme spreads were typically 15-20.  Now, they're typically 20-30.  It's just not that big of a deal when you're shooting pistols at 35 yards or less. 

 

But another part of that is use of the chrono.  There is some skill to setting up and using a chrono properly, and I've done a lot of experimenting with mine to figure out how to run it most consistently.  If you're using a standard optical chrono (not a radar one), then the bullets also affect consistency, where the more shiny the bullet is, the less consistent your numbers are.  Learning what time of day and in what type of cloud cover your chrono works best in improves consistency.   If you're shooting round nose, it can help to color the noses of the bullets with a Sharpie.   Mixed vs sorted vs used vs new cases is one of the least influential factors. 

But seriously, if you want to test that, you have to get into the load range that powder was engineered for.

And if you want super light loads for bunny fart Steel Challenge loads, you should move to a faster burning powder that's meant for that load range with those bullets.   

[Hi-Power Jack]

I use range brass for 9mm Major, and get nice accuracy (3" at 50 yards) in

my TruBor   

 

I wouldn't worry too much about mixed brass     

[IDescribe]

11 hours ago, Hi-Power Jack said:

I use range brass for 9mm Major, and get nice accuracy (3" at 50 yards) in

my TruBor   

 

I wouldn't worry too much about mixed brass     

 

Testify, brother! 

 

Also... Trubor... some day...   

[PhillySoldier]

In my ransom rest testing and with all things being equal other than the brand of brass used, I do see differences in shot group sizes. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

1 hour ago, PhillySoldier said:

 I see differences in shot group sizes. 

 

Can you give us some examples of how large a difference ?

 

Are you talking about 2" groups opening up to 2.25", or 2.75" ?

[PhillySoldier]

Groups opened up half to three quarters of an inch which was about a 60% increase. 

[Hi-Power Jack]

So, that's about going from 1" groups to 1.6" groups, at 25 yards ?

 

Is that using brand new, unfired brass vs firing even 1x fired brass ?

 

Is that a 9mm Minor ?   or Major ? 

 

Any additional details ?   Gun ?  Bullet?  Powder ?

 

This is really great info, thanks for sharing, Philly.

 

p.s.  I've got to get a Ransom rest one of these days.    

[PhillySoldier]

I was running a series of tests and happened to switch brass brands the one day. Not specifically to test brass differences (I didnt expect there to be any since I had all separated by brand) I just ran out of clean brass of the one brand. I was pretty surprised when there was though so I did follow up with an additional test just to confirm the results. I had switched from Starline to Blazer Brass and then back to Starline.

 

I was testing Power Pistol powder at the time between 1050 - 1200 fps, using hornady 115 fmj's. Gun is a Sig P226 Legion 9mm, 4.5" barrel, Barsto match barrel 1:16 twist

 

As for the Ransom Rest - dont do it.... It has totally unhinged me and emptied my wallet. Now Im obsessed with nothing but testing and throwing out what I was perfectly happy with for years before ever getting it  Now I have like 10 gallons worth of blazer brass I wont use

 

And yes groups went from 1.1" to 1.6"

Edited July 27, 2018 by PhillySoldier

[lgh]

On 7/27/2018 at 8:11 AM, PhillySoldier said:

As for the Ransom Rest - dont do it.... It has totally unhinged me and emptied my wallet. Now Im obsessed with nothing but testing and throwing out what I was perfectly happy with for years before ever getting it  Now I have like 10 gallons worth of blazer brass I wont use

Knowing your obsession has saved me a lot of money!

[PhillySoldier]

6 hours ago, lgh said:

Knowing your obsession has saved me a lot of money!

 

Glad to help

[Khaot1c]

So, I've learned a lot about myself during this  Practical Shooting adventure.  Number one among them, my OCD has no bounds and it is only kept in check my ADD.

 

For that reason, I have NOT used a ransom rest. Even though I surf over to their website and start pricing them EVERY TIME I see someone post results obtained by using one.  Add to that my latest adventure this weekending.  I put my PCC into a lead sled  to zero a new optic @ 25 yards.  Seeing the group size (about 1 inch) was enough to start the "how can I improve this?" train of thought. I spent the whole drive home lamenting over what I had just accomplished.  If my PCC is "that bad" then my pistol loads must be atrocious. 

 

And the only way to find out.....

 

[PhillySoldier]

Haaa that sounds like me and im stealing that opening line of yours.

 

When i first got my ransom rest i was using a very normal and popular load of tightgroup and precision delta 124s and cheap brass. I was both happy and disturbed to find the best it could do was 5.5" groupings @ 25 yards. Happy cause it meant my shooting wasn't as bad as i had thought. After a lot of testing im now down to averaging around 1" groupings from the better loads and being able to actually practice regularly at shooting at 25 yards now and actually hitting it consistently. Now working on improving groups at that distance

[PhillySoldier]

When i was considering getting the ransom rest I had asked opinions about it on some fb reloading forums. I winded up w a few people msging me offering to sell theirs. I saved a bit getting it used. So id suggest that if anyone might be looking for one. And sorry for side tracking the thread which wasn't my intent

[olstyn]

54 minutes ago, Khaot1c said:

I put my PCC into a lead sled  to zero a new optic @ 25 yards.  Seeing the group size (about 1 inch) was enough to start the "how can I improve this?" train of thought. I spent the whole drive home lamenting over what I had just accomplished.  If my PCC is "that bad" then my pistol loads must be atrocious.

 

What group size were you hoping to see?

[Khaot1c]

My expectations are probably most of the problem.    I had not shot the PCC from a solid rest up to this point.  IF we can call the lead sled 'placed' on a table without any weights in the tray - a solid rest.   I'm running an 8MOA dot in the C-more and the dot covered the entire 'sticker' that I was using as a point of aim on the target.  Being fairly novice in the shooting sports, I compared this group to what I have seen in my rifle calibers.

 

All things considered, I guess this is pretty acceptable.   It did get me thinking about 'group testing' the pistol loads, and what would be necessary to do that. Naturally, the ransom rest comes to mind.  Given the requirements for action pistol shooting and my level of effort to this point - the money would be better spent on more materials to make practice/range ammo and refine skills.    At some point, it will probably be necessary to jump in the rabbit hole and chase those tighter groups. However, I don't think I'm there, yet.

 

[fbzero]

A few thoughts...

 

1.  ES isn't as critical in pistol shooting as rifle for your practical shooting sports.  I've had loads where the ES was over 60 that were more accurate than other loads where it was less than 20.  The distances, in general, just aren't far enough for it to make a huge difference.

2.  If you aren't happy with your ES, it's probably not the mixed cases.  I use mixed cases and have loads that end up with 30 ES or less...sometimes considerably less.  I was ladder testing yesterday and had two out of five steps where one was ES 14 and one was ES 15 at the higher end of the charge data.

 

3.  Most of the time your variation will become less as you approach the higher end of load data.  For this reason, it's harder to make these numbers look good with "ultra soft loads".

 

4.  It probably doesn't apply here since you're loading soft loads, but if you're getting that kind of variation on loads that are on the higher end of the data, the problem is more likely to be inconsistent powder drops than mixed cases.  At some of my steps, 0.2 was making a 60fps difference in velocity, so throw that variation on top of the 30 ES from the lower end of load data and you can see where this is going...

 

5.  For softer loads, you can try shortening your OAL to increase pressure, and hopefully improve these numbers.  You must re-work your whole ladder test if you do this, because you can increase pressures significantly by doing this.  Always load safe!