Reshoots At Nationals

[BDH]

Interesting discussion about the popper not going down due to wind holding it up. I had not heard about that...

At least I had simple re-shoots, and if I remember correctly, only had two of them. One was for a target pasted prematurely, and I can't even remember what the other one was for, but it was also straitforward.

[slight thread drift]

I really felt bad for the shooter who had to re-shoot because of a pasted target. It was his last stage of the entire Open/L10 match. He had a great run, and said 'finally, about time that I whipped a stage here' and he was really happy. Unfortunately, about half way through scoring, we came to a target that had just been pasted forcing the re-shoot. At that point the 're-shoot demons' took over and while the shooter had a faster time, he ran by one of the targets resulting in a 2 Mike, 1 FTE, which completely screwed him. I felt horrible, but there wasn't anything I could do....

[/slight thread drift]

[Flexmoney]

BDH,

Don't feel bad. The shooter did it to themselves. Reshoots are part of the game. As shooters, we have to handle them.

[Matthew_Mink]

FWIW, I think if that was indeed the case, and I have no doubt it was, then the competitor should be issued a reshoot because it wasn't the same for him as it was for the rest of us.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I hope your kidd'n Matt

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely not, why would I want an unfair advantage over another competitor? I don't care what the rules say, it wasn't fair for him. I realize I'm probably in the minority on this one, and I don't care. I just want every competitor to have a fair shake.

[XRe]

Absolutely not, why would I want an unfair advantage over another competitor?  I don't care what the rules say, it wasn't fair for him.  I realize I'm probably in the minority on this one, and I don't care.  I just want every competitor to have a fair shake.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Seems like, then, for everyone to get a "fair shake", you'd need to grant reshoots for any weather condition that might erupt....

The steel targets need to work the same for all shooters, period - but you can't control the weather. If the steel is in disrepair - fix it. If going to forward falling poppers is required to prevent wind "hold up" (and greater steel safety - you won't want to double tap forward falling steel) - do so. But - you can't control the weather..... and that's the same condition for all shooters. You can't control it.

If wind "hold up" constitutes a reshoot condition, so does rain, so does the angle of the sun, so does humidity (at the chrono), so does a whole list of things. How far do you want to go in giving everyone an absolutely "fair shake"???

[Jake Di Vita]

I think there is a difference between what you said and the wind keeping steel up.

Would you get a reshoot if wind blew a target over? Absolutely.

[TDean]

Hey Matt, I wouldn't argue the prospect of everything being equal to all shooters. I agree with the concept, but until we hold indoor matches and institute instant replay, the calibrated steel must fall to score.

In my view, this situation should have never happened. The RO should have scored a mike, then called the RM out to ensure calibration. Those are the rules.

If the shooter wants arbitration, go for it. It's simply not fair to the rest of the shooters that he was given a re-shoot for the possibility of "wind" interference.

The more I think about this....no offense to anyone who witnessed it, but I've shot in some windy conditions and I’m just stunned that a falling popper would not only be stopped mid-air, but to be propelled up and then delicately reset by the wind?

Wow.

Heck, who here hasn’t been hit in the calf a couple seconds after they carefully set a popper?

The force it would take to blow a falling popper back to vertical should have caused enough momentum for the popper to bounce off the stop bolt and then fall again.

Weird…

I suppose it's possible, but being a Thomas, I'm a natural doubter

So who’s got that video?

[XRe]

The more I think about this....no offense to anyone who witnessed it, but I've shot in some windy conditions and I’m just stunned that a falling popper would not only be stopped mid-air, but to be propelled up and then delicately reset by the wind?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a question of inertia. If the wind is blowing hard against the back of the popper when your bullet impacts it, it can hold it up. I've seen it happen. Takes a pretty firm gust to hold one up, but... it will happen. If one is already falling, it's not likely the wind will "delicately" reset it, as you say

[Flexmoney]

My Area Director happened to be on my squad for the Production match. He has been around the block a time or two...he is a Range Master/Instructor. (at this match, he was a shooter)

I asked him what he would do if running a competitor who hit a popper 3 times in the center "sweet-spot". He indicated that he would stop the shooter, then give a reshoot for Range Equipment Failure.

Kind of surprising, but it does make some sense. Of course, I would also send the conmpetitor straight to the chrono stage to verify the gun/ammo made power factor. (which, it likely did in this case)

Broken, poorly set, not properly maintained...I can understand. A "gust of wind"...not at this match.

Three hits in the sweet spot...something is wrong, regardless.

[EricW]

Am I the only person that questions the designs used for most poppers? Solidifying the hinges would do wonders for reliability. Using the MGM plate rack hinge system instead of the round rod retained by angle-iron would be a huge step in the right direction.

No, it doesn't fix the wind issue, but man have I seen a lot of steel-related issues lately.

[Nik Habicht]

From what little I remember of the popper set-up at the 2002 A8 Factory Gun Championships, the club members/builders tightened the crap out of all poppers, and then placed the poppers on pieces of wood larger than their bases. Spike holes were drilled through the wood, and spikes were driven through the poppers and wood platforms into the soil. That seemed to seriously stabilize the poppers, and prevent soil migration/erosion as the poppers were shot down and reset.....

[Chuck Anderson]

I've had great luck with the poppers designed with the round rod and angle iron. The poppers that I saw at PASA had the skins bolted onto a 90 degree piece of metal that acted at the hinge. The bolts would loosen and steel wouldn't drop.

[dpeters]

Thursday mourning at the open nats we did get some really strong wind. The wind was blowing so hard that we were waundering if the target sticks were going to break. During this wind, we had a shooter in my squad shoot a popper and everyone that was watching saw that the wind caught the popper. The popper fell, but it took forever.

On a side note, those poppers at A7 this year were the best designed poppers that I have seen.

[CRubio]

My Area Director happened to be on my squad for the Production match.  He has been around the block a time or two...he is a Range Master/Instructor.  (at this match, he was a shooter)

I asked him what he would do if running a competitor who hit a popper 3 times in the center "sweet-spot".  He indicated that he would stop the shooter, then give a reshoot for Range Equipment Failure. 

Kind of surprising, but it does make some sense.  Of course, I would also send the conmpetitor straight to the chrono stage to verify the gun/ammo made power factor.  (which, it likely did in this case)

Broken, poorly set, not properly maintained...I can understand.  A "gust of wind"...not at this match. 

Three hits in the sweet spot...something is wrong, regardless.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There may indeed be something wrong but, we have rules in place covering this situation and if we do not adhere to them equally, it is not fair to the other competitors.

No offense to anyone, but I think the call here remains with the competitor. After the three hits, he/she can either move on and finish the stage and call for the calibration or, if one feels really confortable with the load being used, stop right there (not recommended) and call for the calibration.

I do not believe there is any reason for the RO to stop the shooter and declare range equipment failure in this situation.

Just my $0.02

Carlos

[Gary Stevens]

I believe US4.3.1.5 gives the RO the authority to stop the shooter and issue a re-shoot as it says in part " Metal targets...or which fail to fall or overtun when hit...will be treated as range equipment failure."

Gary

[TDean]

I think (that's the problem here, isn't it ) rule that has more to do with non-calibrated plates?

[Gary Stevens]

It says "Metal targets", I read that literally.

Gary

[SteveZ]

I think (that's the problem here, isn't it  ) rule that has more to do with non-calibrated plates?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're correct Tom....US4.3.1.5 (oh how I remember that number from Area 1 stage 3) addresses metal targets which turn on edge or sideways (I've yet to see a pepper popper turn on edge or sideways...so it must be about a metal plate) or (and here's the part I remember oh so well...) fall due to a shot on the support apparatus are grounds for an automatic reshoot. US4.3.1.6 specifically addresses metal plates (which can't be calibrated)...if the metal plate is hit but does not fall .... and the RO sees it, the RO should stop the shooter and issue a reshoot. If the RO doesn't see it....then according to my favorite RM...."it didn't happen".

BTW...I think US4.3.1.5 is a terrible rule. It provides a "safety valve" for a shooter who just shot a no-shoot and is then faced with a metal plate on a stand. "ooops, I accidently shot the stand......reshoot".

[Gary Stevens]

OK much as I hate to do this I am going to quote the rule in total.

US 4.3.1.5 "Metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Metal targets which accidently turn edge on or sideways or which fail to fall when hit, or which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them, or for any other reason, will be treated as range equipment failure."

The rule covers all metal targets, both plates and poppers. Yes few poppers have turned sideways and that part of the rule applies to plates. However if you read the second part of that sentence in conjunction with the first part of "metal targets" it clearly says "or which fail to fall when hit".

Few things RO's do on the range do not involve an element of judgement, this is just another instance. I suspect that if I tried to convince a shooter, that had a problem, that the words "Metal Targets" only applies to plates and not poppers although both are metal, would be a hard sell.

Gary

[wide45]

the area 7 match used a real interesting popper design...and it seemed to work very well. maybe someone from that area could comment on the # of problems they've had with that setup.

On a side note, those poppers at A7 this year were the best designed poppers that I have seen.

I will pass the compliments on to the designer. He's put a lot of work into the poppers.

We've been using them for 3 years or so, with few problems. Naturally there were some issues at the A7.

The poppers are spring loaded against the latch. When struck, they tip back slightly, further compressing the spring. The latch falls, and the spring pushes the popper forward. Windproof even if set very light.

It won't fall if the latch binds, or bounces back into contact. If the base is allowed to rock,or move on the ground, there may not be enough energy left to compress the spring, and let the latch drop.

[GuildSF4]

At Rio we use a lot of forward falling poppers (kind of like Vince's design), they work pretty good, much less problems with these.

I would love to see the design on the ones used at Area 7.

[hopalong]

I apologize for my last post which Flexmoney has edited, thanks Flex and my humble apology to Lawman.

SAM KEEN

[XRe]

Thanks, Gary - now we have a rule to look at that may shed some light on this...

US 4.3.1.5 "Metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score.  Metal targets which accidently turn edge on or sideways or which fail to fall when hit, or which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them, or for any other reason, will be treated as range equipment failure."

Please allow some "devil's advocate" discussion, here. My disclaimer - yes, I am a "range lawyer", but for good purpose - a full and complete understanding of the rules does broaden my understanding of the game, but it also helps me be of better service as an RO, stage designer, etc...!!!

It is interesting to note the difference between the US version of the rule, and the IPSC version of the rule. Specifically, the phrase that you bolded.

Who decides if a metal target has been hit, and how much of an edge hit counts as a hit? What gauge is provided to judge such a hit against? Nothing is specified in the rules. If it's a popper, does the hit have to be in or above the calibration circle? Does it have to be a 3/4 hit on the edge, or does 1/2 work? All splatter within the metal target?

If the RO is the one who must decide, is that decision appealable and/or arbitratable? Is the shooter (or his surrogate) able to request that the RO rule the target didn't fall as it should, or is the shooter's only recourse to request a calibration? If the RO doesn't make this judgement during the course of fire (as would be normal for a range equipment failure, such as a target falling or failing to activate), does it still count as a REF, or is calibration now the only angle?

Doesn't this rule, in effect, negate the entire calibration process?? If the popper doesn't fall when hit, is US4.3.1.5 invoked automatically? Presumably, the shooter has made at least minimum PF, or they won't be in the match, anyway. If the hit(s) satisfy whatever is deemed a "hit" on a steel target, didn't the target fail to fall as intended?

If the shooter drives the target down with multiple shots (and so cannot request a calibration), couldn't a less honorable shooter then use this rule to badger an RO into a reshoot?

Few things RO's do on the range do not involve an element of judgement, this is just another instance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Definitely true - but the rules provide sufficient guidance for all/most of those occasions (for instance, we understand very clearly what a foot fault is, what actions constitute grounds for a match DQ, etc). We have absolutely no guidance for what constitutes a "hit" on a steel target, and when/if this rule should be invoked upon said hit.

I understand the intention of the rule, and what you're getting at - and I agree with your interpretation. What is very unclear to me is how the rule is supposed to be invoked - it's very vague, and would appear to be a "bad thing waiting to happen" to me...

Thoughts?? Discussion?? Hate mail??

[CRubio]

Sorry Gary, I'm afraid I must disagree with you on this.

Here is my reasoning.

US 4.3.1.5 "Metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. 

Agreed.

Metal targets which accidently turn edge on or sideways

Well agree this part deals with plates.

or which fail to fall when hit,

Here is where I would think calibration call comes into play, provided it is requested by the competitor.

or which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the apparatus supporting them, or for any other reason,

I believe this goes back to Steven's point about shooting the stand or whatever support is being used. Since it seems unlikely that a pepper popper would be knocked down by hitting the base, the assumption is that the reference is again towards plates.

will be treated as range equipment failure."

Adding to the discussion........

[Gary Stevens]

As a range lawyer, do you charge your clients by the question or by the case?

I think this is a decision the RO has to make using his/her good judgement and the facts at hand. I don't think the shooter can badger a good RO into much of anything

If the shooter drives it down before I can stop him, then the rules are in place at that time, he owns it.

Everything but a scoring decision by the RM is an issue for arbitration, of course this is usually is it a miss, or a double, or did it touch the line. This situation, I think, is probably eligible for arbitration, maybe not though. I am not sure.

If I stop a shooter for this situation, the first think I will do is inspect the target for obvious problem areas such as a pin backing out, the adjustment nut working lose, or in the case of a plate checking on why it would not fall, perhaps a broken hinge. At that time a call for the RM to calibrate a popper would be in order. If it falls then perhaps a trip to the chronograph is in order, but I have stopped him/her and they are entitled to a reshoot.

I don't think this is something that will be done very often, but in extrodinary circumstances, it is justified, IMO.

Gary

[Gary Stevens]

Carlos, I am just in my kinder and gentler stage of life

Gary