Initial Movement Out Of The Box

[Flexmoney]

I have a pretty good video of a shooter doing some great moving and entering...it happens to be of Jake.

The direction that you are shooting makes a difference in many cases as well. In this example, the shooter is engaging targets right to left...then moving out to the right. He picks up the foot that leads into the direction that he wishes to move...as he fires the last few shots from that position.

Upon entering the next position, notice how low he gets, and how soon, to scrub of momentum. Which allows him to enter the position and engage targets as his feet settle.

jake_moves.wmv

[XRe]

Uh, Jake, you *sure* you know what you do??? Looks to me like you're leanin' and not springin' Not that it looks slow, or anything like that - just would appear to be exactly opposite of what you describe

[Clay1]

Right when he is going to leave the box the camera cuts off his feet so I really can't tell about the foot spring movement. I do definately see a lean before he leave the box when he shot this and the video was taken. He very well might do it differently now.

Thanks for the video Flex.

Rick

[XRe]

Right when he is going to leave the box the camera cuts off his feet so I really can't tell about the foot spring movement.  I do definately see a lean before he leave the box when he shot this and the video was taken.  He very well might do it differently now. 

Thanks for the video Flex.

Rick

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, foot's in the air before the camera leaves - so there's no left leg moving back to spring off of - but he could still spring a bit from the left leg where it was. But, he does appear to be doing exactly what he said was slow and risky - leaning with a foot in the air before firing the last shot in a position.... :)

How old's that vid, guys??

Edit - BTW, I do agree with Jake that the "lean" is risky, and I've gotten bitten by it myself, wasting 2-ish seconds recovering from a missed pre-departure shot on a popper, for instance. Still doesn't stop me from doing it - but it does mean that the execution has really got to be there for it to work....

Edited July 8, 2005 by XRe

[mcoliver]

I made a "matrixed" video the 03 Nats of Stage 1 using Todd, Saul, TGO and Eric. Except for Eric, the others seem to use a variation of the lean/move-out with Todd doing a very noticeable "fall-off."

I'm also doing the same with the other stages and comparing their runs at the same time with a "single view". Pretty interesting stuff with no one executing a really perfect way to do it. Their different techniques works for each of them.

But one very noticeable trait Eric has (position-to-position) compared to the rest is that he always gets to the shooting sooner than most.

[Flexmoney]

I didn't post that to put Jake on the spot...not at all.

I posted it because it was a pretty good video that I had..showing well executed movement. (Very well, IMO.)

That video clip was from earlier this spring. Since then, Jake has shot a pile of major matches and has taken a class form Max and Travis.

[Flexmoney]

I made a "matrixed" video the 03 Nats of Stage 1 using Todd, Saul, TGO and Eric.  Except for Eric, the others seem to use a variation of the lean/move-out with Todd doing a very noticeable "fall-off."

I'm also doing the same with the other stages and comparing their runs at the same time with a "single view".  Pretty interesting stuff with no one executing a really perfect way to do it. Their different techniques works for each of them.

But one very noticeable trait Eric has (position-to-position) compared to the rest is that he always gets to the shooting sooner than most.

Is that Saul's video of the Open Nationals (at Bend?)?

If so, what I took away from that is that Leatham was, far and away, shooting sooner than everybody when coming into a position. The only guys that were coming close to him upon entering a postion were TJ and Eric.

[XRe]

I didn't post that to put Jake on the spot...not at all.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry - not trying to leverage your example to put Jake on the spot, either - I find a lot of interesting lessons in human nature, and one of them is a tendency to insist that they do one thing, when in reality... I agree that it's well done - smooth, quick, efficient....

To get back on topic - I'm curious what drove a change away from the technique shown in the vid Flex posted, and if there isn't some newer vid that we could compare to??

[mcoliver]

Is that Saul's video of the Open Nationals (at Bend?)?

If so, what I took away from that is that Leatham was, far and away, shooting sooner than everybody when coming into a position.  The only guys that were coming close to him upon entering a postion were TJ and Eric.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, it's from Saul's vid.

And TGO cheats , he's shooting along the way from one position to the next. It's really amazing how he can do this and drop very few points on targets with hardcovers.

Watching his run alone, he looks very slow. Running his movie along with some others it becomes really apparent which area he can gain some advantage doing his walk-shoot thing.

[Jake Di Vita]

Hey guys,

I just now realized that this thread had been posted in.

Like Flex said, that video was a while ago and I have slightly altered my technique since then. However on that stage I think either way of leaving the box would have been fine mainly because of the difficulty (easy) of the last target.

What drove me to change the technique was a few things. First I was comparing it with how Max and Travis moved in their class. And second (probably more importantly) I realized that using only that as an exit would limit me. For example. If there was an array of targets at 20 or 25 yards (like stage 9 at summer blast) I would not want to lean out on them as it introduces more motion and another aspect of difficulty to an already hard shot.

I don't have any other video as of now, but I'm sure I will get some from Nationals next week and I'll email the video to Flex to post it (if he wouldn't mind) so you guys can see the difference.

[kevin c]

A related observation/question, here.

I just noticed that, when moving forward out of a shooting position, I pull the gun in (naturally), but now I feel that it is "pulling me forward" as I pull it back. Basic Newtonian physics, I guess, but I am wondering whether this sense of acceleration is real, and if I should be deliberately trying to "pull" myself out of the position, by pulling in the gun along my line of travel, as often as possible.

Of course, if I finish an array turned away from my next shooting position, this won't work, but if I have the option of how to finish - towards or away from the next position, I'm wondering if this really helps.

Mebbe it makes a difference that I shoot a boat anchor: all steel and tungsten Limited Para.

What's your experience? Comments?

Kevin C.

[Jake Di Vita]

I've never experienced that. When I move, everything comes from my legs...Once I spring off my momentum is going in the correct direction enough so that the weight of mags and the gun really doesn't affect me.

Honestly I never even thought about it and it never became an issue.

[j1b]

I'm going to go a little controversial here.

The fact is, it doesn't matter how you leave the box. It matters that you are ready. As with all things in this sport - it depends on the situation right? So whether you lean, push, drag or pull is contingent on the situation.

What matters is manipulating the body such that you are prepared to execute the move efficiently.

My best example is the draw. For me personally there is virtually no difference between a hands up draw and a hands down draw. From a time perspective they are statistically the same for me. Fundamentally I'd have to believe the hands up would be slower - but when I'm doing all things right I've yet to be able to prove that hands down is faster.

Efficiency is certainly key. Part of that is the minds ability to know when it's time to move depending on how you move. If you lean, the mind needs to know when to start leaning. If you spring, the mind needs to know when to spring.

I have no idea how I do either, and I doubt I ever really research it. Leaving the box is a case by case scenario for me and fortunately I have experience enough to intuitively understand what I need to do for me. The only thing I work on in movement is being certain I'm ready to shoot as soon as I possibly can. I've always been able to convince myself that is more important than anything else.

My caveat to this post is that I've spent 10 years overcomplicating this sport. My break down is to simplify it. I believe in my heart (more today than ever) that I've spent years making this more complicated than it has to be. Shooting is not complicated. No component of it is. My current mind set probably won't yield as many stage wins at major matches as in years past. It would likely lead to better match performances though.

J

[BSeevers]

Hmm if it controversial that's what I was saying. So I guess I am too

[Jasonub]

i agree with j1b.

[benos]

I mostly preferred the lean over the back-step/push method, but then I'm a smooth rather than explosive kind of guy. The only time I'd use the back-step/push method is if the last shot or shots were too difficult to allow me to start leaning as I was finishing up the shooting.

be

[Clay1]

I've been out of town for a week. I was lucky enough to be at a spot that I was able to shoot and dry fire everyday. I had a couple of shooting boxes available and looked like a lab rat running back and forth between them. Had a grand time. Love how this thread has developed and the great input. Thanks everyone for all of the help.

Rick

[Jasonub]

i lean or be explosive depending on what the cof dictates. most of the time i prefer not stopping and just shoot on the move through the port or door or box etc

[38supPat]

All I can add to this is to say...Go practice! The timer doesn't lie. Set up some different situations with boxes and try different methods. Don't set up a stage, just two boxes and two to four targets. Try moving forwards, backwards, side to side, toes to the line and heels back up against the line or any other variation of start positions and movement you tend to see.

Personally I use the gravity method for most cases, but not all. I spent almost three weeks one time working on only movement. I dryfired everynight working on the details of each situation from barricades to boxes and everything in between, back and forth, side to side, entering low etc. then went to the range and put it on the timer. For me the gravity method always produced shorter times (except where your feet might be constrained like toes to the line or heels back up against the line) It feels slower but you are moving sooner but go try it yourself

[GuildSF4]

Matt B and Saul K. suggest 2 boxes and a plate rack, to practice getting into and out of positions. (I know there are some other variations on this, and other methods.)

[EricW]

I played with this the other night with my patented, garden hose "boxes" in the backyard. My initial impression is that it is not nearly as important as to whether your lean, push or promenade, as it is to beat feet the *instant* you call your last shot in a position. To me, leaving a box is driven by the same principles as transitioning your gun to the next target: call your shot and get the hell on with it.

I think the key in movement is not in *leaving* a box, but arriving in the next position. That's where you can really burn time, or just plain give yourself a crappy setup.

BTW, I'm definitely a "leaner."

[/ignert Advice from a Scorecard Bottom Dweller Mode]

[scorch]

So here is some video of Max, Adam and another GM who's Name I canot remember right now at area 4 last year. What would you call this move? "THE GM JUMP"

i guess it is kinda of a Push off. the clip is in quicktime.

GM_Moves.mov

Edited November 8, 2005 by scorch

[dirtypool40]

Well, I suppose I'd better step in it here too.

Over in another thread "crossover and roll" I talk about how I move out of a position.

Like Brian said, I am more smooth than explosive. According to my timer I am fastest when I make a crossover step out. It's about 2 feet and .2 seconds faster over stepping the short quick step with the lead foot.

Again, I ain't no big name GM, it's just what seems to work for me......but my movement method is still in it's infancy, take it with a grain of salt and try it for yourself.

[Turtle]

A lot of good comments here....

It seems to me that both the shooters' ability (and comfort in his abilities) and the stage itself dictate what technique to use. I tend to use the the method that Jake described (not the one we saw in Flex's video ) most of the time. It's the same one used by Max and the guys in Scorch's video (nice one, BTW). I've seen Phil use the lean out technique hundreds of times and he's pretty incredible. But I've seen it become disasterous for him as well (i.e. step out, call the shot, oops, step back in, shoot again, etc.). I will only use that method if the last shots are very easy, meaning I can get definate double alphas quickly. I think that in the last video, the stage was setup as to prohibit the shooter from "cheating" by leaning out as the last shots are fired. The doorway was probably blocking the view of the targets. That's why all the shooters used the explosive "step back/lean forward" method.

Edited November 8, 2005 by Turtle

[Ron Ankeny]

I use the middle aged fat guy technique. That technique relies more on gravity than explosive physical ability.

I think the key in movement is not in *leaving* a box, but arriving in the next position.

Matt McClearn told me, "It's all about the set up..."