Initial Movement Out Of The Box

[Clay1]

I was on Max Michel's web site and Max made this statement: "Set up's are probable the biggest time saver in the sport."

I would like to hear more about EXACTLY how you move from one box to another and how you set up for the next shot. Details are what I am looking for. For instance at this point I am trying to use gravity and I pick up my leading foot and lean hard. If my feet don't start moving I will end up on my face, but it seems to help get me where I am going faster. On shorter distance I try and move with the gun up and try to be ready to shoot just before entering the box. You notice I used the word try more than once in the above. I find it easy to say than do.

Did a search on set up and found this jem: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...=2582&hl=set+up

If you haven't read it, it deserves a good read. Can't post to it to bump it back up but full of great info.

Thanks for the tips.

Rick

[Jake Di Vita]

It is really hard to put all this into words...I am short on time right now so I will just hit the leaving aspect.

Personally, I think using gravity and a lean is a time waster because you have to wait for your momentum to start before you can start moving. What I do is always load up my trailing foot so I can use it as a spring. To try and describe it. Imagine shooting in your normal shooting stance (right handed). After your last shot is fired my rear (right) foot snaps back a couple of inches and when it contacts the ground it acts as a spring...this allows you to get moving a lot faster than waiting for gravity to get you moving.

As I said, very hard to explain with words....it would be a lot easier to show it.

[Clay1]

Thanks Jake for the quick response. Does it matter which direction you are moving for you to use your right foot as the spring? I'm definately new at this stuff and willing to learn so if gravity is not the way then I am all ears.

[Flexmoney]

I like the gravity method, but you have to be able to start it early (while you are still shooting).

[Clay1]

Kyle, you start leaning while you're still shooting?

[XRe]

I've tended to do both, depending on the circumstance. If you can get your momentum moving in the direction you need to depart while you're still moving, it can help. Common ways might include leaning, picking up the foot on that side, etc. Some practice at this helps you feel how much you can get away with and still shoot accurately. If the shooting position prevents starting the movement out of the position until after the last shot is fired (say, leaning in the other direction is required to shoot the targets), the technique Jake describes helps get it moving in the other direction.

As far as arrival at another position, there are various ways - common amongst them seems to be having the gun up and on target two steps or so before arriving, remain as close to the same height as possible - if you run low, stay there, and start engaging at the earliest possible point. Say you're moving into a box - you'd like to make the first step into the box be a movement into a stable position, and already be set up on the target, so that when you pick up the foot outside the box, you can start shooting right away. There are various thoughts on whether it's better to step into the box first with the leading or trailing foot, etc - it boils down to what works best for you.

The general idea is to be ready to shoot as soon as possible after getting into position, and be moving as soon as possible after shooting the last target from that spot. Your abilities, preferences, and the course setup are going to determine how best to do that...

[Flexmoney]

Kyle, you start leaning while you're still shooting?

If I can. If the last shots require a more stable stance, then I will do as Jake mentioned. (and Dave mentioned)

[shred]

Here's an example from the Double Tap match. You had to shoot one set of targets from the box. Check out the leaves on the box.

http://www.uspsa-photos.org/gallery/albums.../DTR_Stage3.wmv

[Clay1]

Good video Shred. I see where the second shooter had a heavy lean before the box position was done. Must be similar to what Flex was speaking about. Thanks

[Jake Di Vita]

I will always use my trailing foot as the "spring" foot. I will do this for pretty much any situation....I don't personally like the method Flex describes (although it works fine for him) because I feel it is slower and also has a lot higher disaster factor as you are adding in movement to a shot that doesn't need it....this could cause a point down...or a mike depending on the situation.

Also, should you have a jam or trigger freeze as you are falling out of the box, it takes a heck of a lot more to get back into position, fire the shot, and then move again rather than to just move when you are done shooting.

I don't necessarily think either way is always faster (my way is faster for me because I practice it a LOT) but I do believe my way is safer and more consistent throughout a match.

[vluc]

This is a perfect example of why this forum is so great. Two outstanding shooters with two slightly/radically different ways of doing things, neither is right, neither is wrong, each has found something that works for them.

Try both methods, heck, you may discover a third in trying that works for you!

[AWLAZS]

It is really hard to put all this into words...I am short on time right now so I will just hit the leaving aspect.

Personally, I think using gravity and a lean is a time waster because you have to wait for your momentum to start before you can start moving. What I do is always load up my trailing foot so I can use it as a spring. To try and describe it. Imagine shooting in your normal shooting stance (right handed). After your last shot is fired my rear (right) foot snaps back a couple of inches and when it contacts the ground it acts as a spring...this allows you to get moving a lot faster than waiting for gravity to get you moving.

As I said, very hard to explain with words....it would be a lot easier to show it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Jake why dont you just step out with your strong foot instead of stepping backwards to go forwards?

[Jake Di Vita]

You can't get the spring without first loading your back foot....With only stepiing with your strong foot you are once again relying on gravity to get you going and for me it's slower.

[Matt Cheely]

Jake why dont you just step out with your strong foot instead of stepping backwards to go forwards?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you fail to push off while trying to initiate movement, you're still using gravity to start you off, you're almost doing Flex's move only now you're waiting to lean till after you're already done shooting. Pushing off with the other foot is the only way to generate extra movement without waiting. It's just like sprinting forward. You push off with your rear foot, only now you're doing it sideways.

I've seen Jake do it many a time (he's trying to teach me) and trust me, he moves his feet so fast you can hardly tell. I also think it's more of a consistent way to shoot through a match. If it's even close in speed, I think it has a lower disaster factor. Though I can see both ways being useful in different situations.

[shred]

FWIW, Max -n- Travis teach both the 'lean' and the 'launch', depending on the situation.

[Flexmoney]

I did a little search...came up empty...but, I stole the idea from Todd Jarrett (among others).

I don't experience the disaster factor that Jake describes. In fact, I would make the arguement that it was safer and more consistent...but, I'm a bit apathetic.

[Jake Di Vita]

You think you were gettin off that easy?

What makes you say it is safer and more consistent?

[Flexmoney]

Aiming.

I just make the shot before I fall out all over the place.

If I don't, my head isn't in the right place to begin with.

OK...I'll add...

...with the drop-step/push method, there can be a desire to get to the movement...before the shooting is done...a change in focus. (of course, we can say that about most anything)

[GuildSF4]

Matt has some tips on this in his video series also. If you have a set or can borrow one check it out. (Vol 1-3 and 4)

[BSeevers]

I like to do both depending on the stage. Either can gain a little time in the right situation

[Clay1]

I pulled out Matt's DVD last night and watched it again. Everytime I watch those things something else pops out at me. They are a wealth of info.

Thanks everyone for all of the good info on the initial move. When I started this thread it was also about set ups or coming into a position. I think that I will retitle this one about initial movement out of the box and start a new thread on entering thanks for the great info.

Rick

[dirtypool40]

Jake I was doing the "step back load up" thing you describe and DAMN is that a hard haabit to break. TJ was all over me about moving back before going forward.

I fell into a major slump just trying to work it out in my head over the next month or so. Woof. There is a lot to the game at that level.

Entering positions was even worse.

[eric nielsen]

If the first movement is off to the right, I'll set up and LAMR with my right foot forward and pointed out 30, 40, 50 degrees to the right. Whatever angle will put my NPA on the first or toughest target. As I start shooting I lean on that right foot.

Even if you do the tap-back method you may go quicker with the above setup.

If targets are VERY tough in the first position, I'll set up with a normal left-foot-forward stance and just hope the quicker/more accurate shooting makes up for the slower departure from the position.

[AWLAZS]

Jake I was doing the "step back load up" thing you describe and DAMN is that a hard haabit to break.  TJ was all over me about moving back before going forward.

I fell into a major slump just trying to work it out in my head over the next month or so.  Woof.    There is a lot to the game at that level.

Entering positions was even worse.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I took Todds class and he sure does make a big deal out of the time spent stepping backwards to go forward. He also leaves and enters every box with his right foot. I am sure I step back before I take off because he mentioned it several times.

[dirtypool40]

yeah and it (along with the other 5367 details I never knew existed) REALLY put the whammy on me. I dropped 30% in scores for over a month while my brain tried to BEGIN to digest the stuff he'd shared with us.

Money well, spent, but never BEFORE a course again. Lesson learned in more ways than one.