38supPat Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I'm going to go a bit OT here. One thing I have noticed over the year is the tendancy to put a lot of weight on what one GM says and ignore the others. The GM in question always changes but inevitably is the one currently considered the "best" or the current National/World Champion. When I started it was Jerry B, then it was Todd J. now it is Max/Travis in the US and Eric everywhere else. Now I'm not saying that these guys don'y know what they are talking about, far from it, you don't get to there level without knowing what you are doing. Just that it is their variation and it works for them, it's not for everybody. If two instuctors were giving free classes on the same day, one was Max and one was say Matt Burkett, which would you pick and why? If you're answer is simply beause "he's National Champ." That's not quite good enough for me. Me? I'd probably pick Max, not because he is National champion, but rather because while I have shot with both of them before, I have spent more time talking with Matt and kno whis take on quite a few things. I haven't talked to Max as much and would like to see his version. It's not about titles, more perspective. But I also would have no problem taking a course from Dave Re, Manny B., Chris Keen or any of the other GM's here. I've had shooters blow off my advice, or other GM's because "That's not how Eric would do it." Fair enough, good luck, have a nice day. You're passing up free advice in order to try to duplicate another shooter instead of learning about YOU. My advice, listen to everything, quite often I have learned from watching something a C or D class shooter did. Get as much information and as many versions of each technique as you can. Go out and put it on the timer yourself and learn what works for you. In the end when someone asks YOU why you did something you have something better to answer with than, "Thats what I was told by X" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I've let someone else do the research for me, you guys rock on. I have applied it to my shooting and have seen how well it works for ME, and I don't need a timer to measure that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I've let someone else do the research for me, you guys rock on. I have applied it to my shooting and have seen how well it works for ME, and I don't need a timer to measure that. How do you measure it then? How will you know if something else might be better if you don't measure? ...just sayin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I've let someone else do the research for me, you guys rock on. I have applied it to my shooting and have seen how well it works for ME, and I don't need a timer to measure that. How do you measure it then? How will you know if something else might be better if you don't measure? ...just sayin... Instructors have a phrase for that... "Repeat customer" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I was talking to Manny about a stage at A6. I asked him why he was planning to take an array this way over that. He told me that he had worked with a timer to know that it was faster for him to do it this way. Then he hit me with a little montra: "If you can't prove it, don't do it" Not the answer I was looking for That means I would have to practice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 John, if I told you what load to use in your rifle, what dope to dial, and what wind to hold, you would listen to me and do it on blind faith and ask questions later right? If there was reasonable method to my madness and you hit the bullseye, would you need to use valuable primers to find a better way into the X ring? What I was taught by a pair of GM shooters that they have researched inside and out has been working well for me. When I master that I might need to tweak it according to my own abilities. Right now I am focusing on one foot in front of the other before I try to run. It's a marathon, not a sprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjb45 Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 I like your observations Pat. I got to shoot with Nick S and Matt McLearn in a few matches. Each has their own style. Both shoot extremely well. Personally, I would love to be able to hold my body upright like Matt McLearn and shoot while moving. I have tried it many times, but it just does not work for me. He moves so effortlessly it boogles my mind. I have shot with other GMs also. Each GM has adapted technique to their mental and physical capabilities. I do find that at my age, physical shape, and skill level, I tend to favor a couple GMs technique over a few others. I know I am not going to be explosive like Max or Travis. So I like listening to each GM describe what technique works best for them. The philosophy (theory) then adapt it to my abilities. Taran's philosophy seems to work best for me; slow down on the approach, drop your center of gravity,be ready to shoot, push the gun in far enough so you see all the targets possible, then move out. He epitomizes the California rolling stop. He slows down then rolls on through to the next array. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 The key for me is 'whadda I have to do to make the last shot'? All else is secondary. If it's standing still, then it's the drop-step.. an easier one, maybe start to lean. Up close, get moving before you start shooting and so on. I have to practice considerably on unforgiving things like plate racks to determine just what I can and can't get away with. That I think is the key. You can go on and on about 'when should I use this technique or that?', but until you know what works for you and at what distances... well, Maku Mozo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 25, 2009 Share Posted May 25, 2009 Bobby, nobody is suggesting that you should not listen to and try to learn what Max taught you. If you notice, nobody said Max was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I have shot with other GMs also. Each GM has adapted technique to their mental and physical capabilities. I do find that at my age, physical shape, and skill level, I tend to favor a couple GMs technique over a few others. This is exactly what I advocate experimenting and proving to yourself!!! I don't think anyone would argue at all that Todd Jarrett is not a phenomenal shooter, right? But, several of his techniques simply don't work for me. I wouldn't at all begin to call Todd wrong (certainly, if it works that well for him, I'd have no argument to stand on anyway). But, what works for him may not for me. I know I am not going to be explosive like Max or Travis. Body type plays a lot into that - its good to recognize what you can do and cannot (that shouldn't stop you from trying to improve what you've got at whatever level you can, IMO - but setting appropriate goals that way is definitely a good thing!). I'll never move like TT or TJ, either - that super exaggerated spring they have just isn't in me... That doesn't mean that I can't move fast - I just may not look the same, or might have to make up time in different places than they do... but until you know what works for you and at what distances... well, Maku Mozo. Bobby, nobody is suggesting that you should not listen to and try to learn what Max taught you. If you notice, nobody said Max was wrong. Yeah, big +1 to that - and also, not trying to beat you up, buddy. As far as rifle shooting goes... (I know you asked John, but...) I don't know much. I also don't know your creds, but I've read some posts you've made with interest. I know several very skilled rifle shooters, though - I have a tendency to research the snot out of things, and go with something that works until I gain enough skill to start being able to decide for myself (ie, I can determine when it was me, and when it was the gun/load/whatever). Then I'd start playing around - just like I do now - after more research into likely avenues so that I don't waste time or money. If I advanced enough that I was able to start innovating for myself, I'd go that route, too. Now... that may not be all that different from where you feel you're at in our game - I submit, though, that we've got a few more tools to make things easier to take those steps more quickly (ie, video camera and timer). Its harder to track exactly how you set up on the gun, pulled the trigger, doped wind accurately, ranged the target, etc (at least, I don't know of anything that makes it as easy as looking at movement skills in our sport... like I said, I don't know much so you might tell me differently ). Anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 XRe, shooting extreme distances with a rifle is not much different. The more you learn the better you get. We have shot calling in rifles as well, it's an advanced technique. A well seasoned rifle shooter knows how much recoil he put in the rifle, how his trigger pull was, his follow through, natural respiratory pause, grip pressure, the list goes on. I've been very fortunate in that aspect of shooting as I have a mentor that has brought me years ahead in a shorter amount of time by offering his friendship and advice. I have no one locally that shoots practical pistol, so much of this journey I walk alone with the help of my wife. I will get there, and maybe some day I'll need to consult the timer, right now, I'm listening to a few that have already done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 And BTW, I've ventured way outside the box in the rifle shooting, and it has been quite successful for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted May 26, 2009 Share Posted May 26, 2009 I have no one locally that shoots practical pistol, so much of this journey I walk alone with the help of my wife. You have a bunch of people - a bunch of very skilled people - as close to you as your computer. Buy a video camera and start using it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 [buy a video camera and start using it. Hey, this is supposed to be a family-oriented forum Seriously, just watching video of myself I've learned a TON...it's easy, but not always fun to watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 I have the video camera, and YouTube videos posted. In the gallery I have posted links, and occasionally someone will offer some advice. So XRe, put up or shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 So XRe, put up or shut up. Why would I offer input to someone who's not going to listen to it, anyway...??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 So XRe, put up or shut up. Why would I offer input to someone who's not going to listen to it, anyway...??? You mean like you just did? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 27, 2009 Share Posted May 27, 2009 So XRe, put up or shut up. Why would I offer input to someone who's not going to listen to it, anyway...??? Listening and being able to apply it are 2 different things. I guess that's the part I'm having trouble communicating. Where I am in my shooting, just because you WANT me to do something new and different doesn't mean I can do it yet. Heck I'm still trying to perfect the technique Max and Travis shared with me, but I already know these things have improved my shooting by leaps and bounds. Heck you might even get a beer out of the whole thing. And just because I'm stubborn doesn't mean I'm stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z32MadMan Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I haven't taken the time to read this thread, so hopefully this isn't a repost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted May 29, 2009 Share Posted May 29, 2009 I haven't taken the time to read this thread, so hopefully this isn't a repost. I need some shoes like that!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 I haven't taken the time to read this thread, so hopefully this isn't a repost. That's what I was talking about with Max's technique that I observed. Eliminating the lean is fast, fast, fast. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bofe954 Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Anyone have video/good explanation of the "crossover". I am pretty familiar with the lean, and the drop step is shown well a few times in this thread. I did search this forum, I'll try training techniques next... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Griffin Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Anyone have video/good explanation of the "crossover". I am pretty familiar with the lean, and the drop step is shown well a few times in this thread. I did search this forum, I'll try training techniques next... The crossover simply refers to leading out of your position with the trailing foot, rather than the leading foot, causing it to cross over the front foot on the way. I only use it if there is a clear advantage to a step order that it will achieve; if it is more than four steps then I wouldn't use it. But on draws particularly when it is one or two steps to the first shooting position, I might start with a crossover so that I'm coming into the position in my preferred stance. H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted June 6, 2009 Share Posted June 6, 2009 Listening and being able to apply it are 2 different things. I guess that's the part I'm having trouble communicating. Where I am in my shooting, just because you WANT me to do something new and different doesn't mean I can do it yet. Heck I'm still trying to perfect the technique Max and Travis shared with me, but I already know these things have improved my shooting by leaps and bounds. Actually, in terms of discrete movement skills, there's not really much difference between what those two guys teach, and what I teach. I use a 2nd position entry for easy shots, whereas they enter the same way every time. Other than that... So, I wouldn't/won't be doing anything different - just yelling at you about stuff you've already been exposed to in those respects... Now, stuff you haven't been exposed to... that might be another matter entirely... Heck you might even get a beer out of the whole thing. Keep the beer, but I might take a nice burger or something And just because I'm stubborn doesn't mean I'm stupid. No doubt... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red_SC Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 (edited) And BTW, I've ventured way outside the box in the rifle shooting, and it has been quite successful for me. Do tell... [edit: in a dedicated new thread for rifle shooting] Edited June 7, 2009 by Flexmoney Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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