Initial Movement Out Of The Box

[Clay1]

Ron, you can't do that on this board! You can't make a statement like: Matt McClearn told me, "It's all about the set up..." and then not explain how you do your set up in detail. Please elaborate.

Ron, if you would prefer to put your answer in this thread that would be fine too: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...topic=25527&hl=

Thanks for the help.

Rick

[kamakiri]

I spent a while with a timer this weekend exploring methods for leaving a shooting position, comparing as many as I could come up with (principally variations on the step back/launch and the gravity lean), and I definitely proved to my own satisfaction that for me the best technique to use is not "the one that feels best" (applied to all situations regardless) but "the one that's most appropriate to the situation." It's clearly NOT best to use the same technique in every case.

I can summarize what I noticed by saying that the step back/launch seems faster for leaving a start position where there are no shots fired, or where the shots are quite difficult, while the gravity lean is superior for situations with easier shots. The choice is also partly dependent on the next array to which I'm headed... relative to the next array, the more explosive launch seems best when approaching a position with easy shots, while the smoother lean is best if I'm going to set up on a harder target... an interesting reversal of applicability.

[Ramas]

Bump for good thread.

[jkrispies]

Bump for good thread.

Good idea on the bump-- I'm interested to see if some of the former posters have changed their techiques in the past few years.

I don't feel that I'm a good enough shooter/mover to legitimately comment on what is or isn't superior technique, but I'd like to throw an observation in from a slightly different perspective: that of a former sprinter. Back in high school I ran the 100, 200, 110 High Hurdles, and 300 Hurdles, all out of the starting blocks. I didn't put two and two together until I read this thread, but my most comfortable exits are when I'm able to lean into the direction I'm moving with my strong leg coming forward, and then shove off simultaneously with my strong leg plus my trailing foot by way of a calf contraction. This is as close as you can get to simulating a sprinter's starting block "burst" without the actual aid of starting blocks; it's also how I used to start running when I ran the anchor leg of the 4x100 relay. It's also how I still burst into a sprint when I need to get from one place to another FAST when working security detail on my job.

On a side note, as a Single Stack shooter who follows the "if you're moving, you're reloading" rule, that momentary space of time when I'm falling forward tends to be when I'm initiating my reload.

[38supPat]

I haven't really changed, if anything did, it's probably my attitude not technique. Jack was right, we spend way too much time complicating simple things. Have you ever watcheed guys prepare to shoot a stage with a door in it. They spend so much time figuring out how they go through the door, and yet we go through probably hundereds if not thousands of doors every week. It's just not that hard!

[Singlestack]

I haven't really changed, if anything did, it's probably my attitude not technique. Jack was right, we spend way too much time complicating simple things. Have you ever watcheed guys prepare to shoot a stage with a door in it. They spend so much time figuring out how they go through the door, and yet we go through probably hundereds if not thousands of doors every week. It's just not that hard!

Sez you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEx9A4VDeqQ...324&index=4

[kgunz11]

Hahahaha... that was priceless, you tried to use the knob too. Did you hear about Lanzo and the troubles he had with that door? He turned and looked at the RO and said "is it locked?".

[Matt Griffin]

If you're young and in good shape, then Max's exit is probably the fastest possible way to do it without disturbing sight picture.

1. Stay low, big bend in knees

2. When final shot is made and you're satisfied

3. Both feet come off of ground while torso rotates a bit towards target

4. As you're falling, you're moving your back foot away from your body,

5. Making contact and pushing off while front foot hits and digs in for next step.

I've watched him shoot the SC stage that has movement, and that's how he gets out of position. It accomplishes the one big trick of not having to wait for your lean to make your planted foot become your trailing foot. Instead, you by-god sneer at gravity and make one of your feet move to become trailing so that you can get on your merry way.

H.

[XRe]

I'm more curious to know how many folks bothered to put all the possible techniques on the timer and see what actually results in the highest hit factor? I did...

I've settled on two... Crossover for leaving on easy targets, drop-step for leaving on harder ones, or odd positions where its otherwise difficult to do a crossover (regardless of target difficulty).

[G-ManBart]

I'm more curious to know how many folks bothered to put all the possible techniques on the timer and see what actually results in the highest hit factor? I did...

I've settled on two... Crossover for leaving on easy targets, drop-step for leaving on harder ones, or odd positions where its otherwise difficult to do a crossover (regardless of target difficulty).

That's what I've been working on (timer etc) and settled on those same two basic techniques. While working on this I also noted the difference between leaving on an easy target and moving to a hard target versus leaving on a hard target and moving to an easy target. I wish I had more time to spend on this stuff. I know I could spend days or weeks working on just those couple of ideas and not run out of things to try and compare. R,

[Flexmoney]

I have to factor in things like...where is my weight distributed.

...which can be a factor of if I shot the position left-to-right or right-to-left.

...which can be a factor of how I chose to setup in that position in the first place.

...

[kgunz11]

I'm more curious to know how many folks bothered to put all the possible techniques on the timer and see what actually results in the highest hit factor? I did...

I've settled on two... Crossover for leaving on easy targets, drop-step for leaving on harder ones, or odd positions where its otherwise difficult to do a crossover (regardless of target difficulty).

That's the same thing Max and Travis teach in their classes. I have learned to start applying it and it works for me as well. I didn't pull out the timer to do tests, Max and Travis already did all that for me.

[38supPat]

I'm more curious to know how many folks bothered to put all the possible techniques on the timer and see what actually results in the highest hit factor? I did...

I've settled on two... Crossover for leaving on easy targets, drop-step for leaving on harder ones, or odd positions where its otherwise difficult to do a crossover (regardless of target difficulty).

That's the same thing Max and Travis teach in their classes. I have learned to start applying it and it works for me as well. I didn't pull out the timer to do tests, Max and Travis already did all that for me.

Then you may have missed the point, if you don't put yourself on the timer you haven't learned.

[kgunz11]

Respectfully Sir, I don't need to poke a screwdriver in a light socket, when an electrician tells me it will shock me, I believe the man.

When 2 of the best shooters in the world tells me it is faster, I don't need a timer. Besides, it just makes sense.

[Flexmoney]

I don't know any electrician that hasn't been shocked.

[Singlestack]

I learned something about cross-over steps the other day during a walk thru. I was wearing cleats and I hooked a cleat in the loop on my shoe lace. I thought someone had thrown a bolo around my feet. SPLAT! In the rocks.

I tuck them in the top of my shoes now

[Flexmoney]

So, John...you are saying...to get out of the box well...don't trip and fall down in the rocks? Good advice.

[XRe]

Respectfully Sir, I don't need to poke a screwdriver in a light socket, when an electrician tells me it will shock me, I believe the man.

Respectfully, though, Bobby, the man is right

While I'm doing things the same way those guys are (on exits, anyway), and had some discussions w/ Max on the subject, I can tell you from having done it that nothing instills confidence in the techniques like proving it to yourself. Besides - those guys may be on top now, but that doesn't mean they know everything... You might discover something new along the way - or you might discover that a small variation (for you) works a little better. And... there are other top shooters doing different things, too, BTW...

Blind faith is... blind... after all...

Of course, those two techniques will take you a long way, even without doing the proving, so...

[XRe]

I learned something about cross-over steps the other day during a walk thru. I was wearing cleats and I hooked a cleat in the loop on my shoe lace. I thought someone had thrown a bolo around my feet. SPLAT! In the rocks.

Ha! BTDT, buddy

The term is a little misleading... but when I (or Max/TT, or Burkett, or others, I'm sure) talk about "crossing over" on an exit, we're talking about stepping across the body, not doing a crab-like cross step. It'd be easier to show you in person... For the crab-like one, your hips are usually square to the target, and that requires you to lift one foot over the other, and exposes you to tripping in a variety of ways. The crossover step is a little different - you orient your hips so that they're pointing more in the direction of the movement, so you don't have to cross feet over the other - this avoids the risk of tripping entirely, if done correctly

[Singlestack]

So, John...you are saying...to get out of the box well...don't trip and fall down in the rocks? Good advice.

I know, for me, its much faster when I don't fall down.

so you don't have to cross feet over the other - this avoids the risk of tripping entirely, if done correctly

Tucking the shoe laces in helps a bit, if done correctly.

[kgunz11]

Respectfully Sir, I don't need to poke a screwdriver in a light socket, when an electrician tells me it will shock me, I believe the man.

Respectfully, though, Bobby, the man is right

While I'm doing things the same way those guys are (on exits, anyway), and had some discussions w/ Max on the subject, I can tell you from having done it that nothing instills confidence in the techniques like proving it to yourself. Besides - those guys may be on top now, but that doesn't mean they know everything... You might discover something new along the way - or you might discover that a small variation (for you) works a little better. And... there are other top shooters doing different things, too, BTW...

Blind faith is... blind... after all...

Of course, those two techniques will take you a long way, even without doing the proving, so...

I understand, and at the same time wish I could have BACK the time I spent finding out things for myself when I could have listened to someone that knew what they were talking about in the first place. Where I am in my shooting, I can be using my training time doing other things I need to work on instead of trying to prove the guys right or wrong. I have learned not to question what the GM's say.

I had someone once tell me not to waste time shooting while on the move, to run to a position and shoot the targets, then get to where I need to be next. I didn't really listen to him for a while, but eventually got tired of him fussing at me so I whipped out the timer and ran some drills. He was right, by a large margin. I don't shoot while moving anymore unless there is no other way. Now when he says something, I listen, and I heed all of his advice. Perfecting the techniques made him a better shooter, and that is my goal. Not to try and prove him wrong, and not to lose valuable time convincing myself he is right.

A wise man once told me "wise men know best", so when wise men talk, I listen. I'm kinda hardheaded, trying to change that about myself. If you guys feel you need to time yourselves, go for it.

Another analogy for you Flex, if a bridge builder told me a cross braced system was stronger than a sub let system, me not being a bridge builder, I'd be inclined to listen to him, especially before spending a lot of money to find out he knows his business. I have much respect for those that want to find the better mousetrap, for me, I need to learn how to trap the mouse first.

[G-ManBart]

I understand, and at the same time wish I could have BACK the time I spent finding out things for myself when I could have listened to someone that knew what they were talking about in the first place. Where I am in my shooting, I can be using my training time doing other things I need to work on instead of trying to prove the guys right or wrong. I have learned not to question what the GM's say.

Someting to consider is that you might be able to do both at the same time. I know that sounds unusual, but if you listen to what the GM's say you'll often find more than one way they do something. So, you can either pick based upon either a guess or previous knowledge where something they said worked for you, or you can do a quick comparison on the clock to eliminate one of the two. You can also work on other things at the same time...whatever your goal for that day's practice is.

Just a for instance: Say you want to work on partial targets that are tough shots....accuracy work. Set up two small arrays (maybe just two targets each) with those partial targets on them. You can work on accuracy while you're shooting and then simply use the timer to see which method of leaving/entering the boxes is more efficient for you.

At the end of the day you've worked on your partial target accuracy and learned something valuable about what works for you as far as movement technique is concerned.

I have extremely limited live fire time now and I'm almost always trying to double dip. That may not be the "best" way, but it's certainly not bad when it's all you've got. R,

[badchad]

[i have learned not to question what the GM's say.

Looks like you're questioning 2 or 3 of them right now.

[38supPat]

So, John...you are saying...to get out of the box well...don't trip and fall down in the rocks? Good advice.

I know, for me, its much faster when I don't fall down.

so you don't have to cross feet over the other - this avoids the risk of tripping entirely, if done correctly

Tucking the shoe laces in helps a bit, if done correctly.

Lol...have you guys considered something with velcro instead of shoestrings?

[XRe]

I have learned not to question what the GM's say.

Looks like you're questioning 2 or 3 of them right now.

I was about to respond with the same thing...

And if you never take up shooting on the move again, you will eventually be at a disadvantage, as well. Even Max has taken to shooting on the move, now, you'll notice... You don't get better at it until you practice it. You don't know what difficulty level of targets (distance, available scoring area, penalties around it, etc) you can reliably shoot 95% of points on until you practice it. If you go employing it outside those parameters, you will almost certainly be losing time. Employ it inside them, however.... and you cover ground quickly and shoot points along the way. And like I said before - until you go put that time in, you just don't know.... And following some other guy blindly (regardless of whether he's the local hotshot or the reigning world champion) is still just blind faith. You won't own it until you prove it to yourself. And - what works best now, will not in the future. If you never evaluate, and re-evaluate, you'll miss huge opportunities to improve.

There's a lot to be said for shutting up and listening - especially when you're starting off. I certainly am not arguing that. Until you have the basics down well, accepting that they work over other techniques for a reason is good enough - eventually, you'll have the skill level where you can evaluate the others for yourself and quickly discard them anyway, for the same reasons the rest of us have. Once you get past things like grip, stance, shot calling, though, there are no blanket statements anymore - you'll find top GMs exiting and entering positions in all sorts of ways, at times. You'll even find variations in grip at the top!

When I teach, I show my students the techniques that I use. I can articulately explain my reasons for using them, and show how they work better for me on the timer, if they like. I also tell them that I am not the be-all-end-all - I give them the tools to evaluate potential new skills for themselves, and encourage them to consider training with other GMs, as well, to get a broad exposure to different methods of instruction and technique. When someone feeds you a blanket statement, question it, prove it (one way or the other), and find out if there are times it does and doesn't hold true.... Even GMs can change their minds about what works for them, and it doesn't happen on a whim, typically...