PCC Starting Position Variations?

[Dlister70]

I haven't really seen anything else other than "low ready" or "stock on belt, muzzle pointed down range".  Or if the pistol guys have hands on marks on a wall, then the PCC has their own lower mark to touch with the muzzle.

 

Is there anything else?

I've just started designing some stages, and my general rule of thumb has been that if pistol shooters start with hands at sides, then PCC shooters start is low ready.  If pistol shooters start with hands in surrender position, then PCC shooters start with stock on belt (pistol shooters have to lower hands to get gun, PCC shooters have to raise stock to start shooting, so it seemed comparable in terms of time consumed). 

 

But what about if pistol shooters are facing up range, or up range + surrender?  If they have to spin and draw, what should I have the PCC shooters do that is a comparable minor complication to the start?  Are you allowed to specify that PCC start is "staring at your feet" or something like that?  At least then, neither shooter is able to focus attention on the first target that they want to shoot, which is ultimately the objective that I'm going for on this stage.  I guess I could just start everyone behind a wall that they have get around before the shooting starts, but I was trying to think of another way to do it.

 

I just wondered if there was a another PCC start option that I haven't encountered yet.  I'm not sure what else you could safely do, but I figured there might be something else that I hadn't seen.  

[Flatland Shooter]

"Staring at feet" would be tough to enforce.  

 

If a table is available, have all shooters start with trigger guard on "X" and gun loaded or unloaded.  

 

You could always have the shooter start outside the fault line so that the first thing all would need to do is move inside the fault lines.  This could be just a single step or it could be a few yards away.  

 

Starting behind a wall with hands on "X" and PCC muzzle on "X" evens things up a bit.  

 

Unloaded starts for many shooters puts the pistols at an advantage.    Long courses of fire with no reloads puts the advantage back on the Open and PCC shooters.

 

But keep in mind PCC is a separate division and competes only with other PCC shooters.  Trying to "even" things up is a minor consideration when I'm designing a stage.  Kick in the creative juices and find something that gives most of your competitors a reasonable challenge and they will be good stages.

 

I'm probably in the minority, but I get to shoot with some fairly new shooters on a regular basis and don't want to overwhelm or "bait them" so I rarely have "facing up range" as a starting position.  Nothing wrong with that start position, but I put it in the same catagory as "going prone".  Its just something that rarely really adds to the stage.

 

But then, its just my opinion.

 

Edit to add: If you will be designing stages on a regular basis, take a look at tridentstagedesigner.com     I'm not associated with the site but do have access.  In the past I used PowerPoint for stages and it was cumbersome to say the least.  The Trident tools, along with giving you access to a lot of stages prepared by others, allows you to design your own or customize their stages with minimal hassle.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Flatland Shooter

[rowdyb]

At my club I do a man vs man steel match. What seemed to equal out the times to first shots between pistols and pcc for us was both shooters start with hands in surrender. Pistol is holstered, pcc is flat on a table. That gave surprisingly equal first shot times across C-A class shooters in either pistol or carbine divisions.

 

Then the pcc guys could also be facing up range along with the pistol guys as well, right? So just have a barrel at the start position for every stage for the pcc shooter to start with the gun out of their hands. But oh wait.... never mind.

[Hammer002]

For reference, I have been shooting PCC for almost all of this season. 

 

Few things I have noticed.  First, is there was a bit of a learning curve in stage start positions.  Meaning, some designers just made PCC start position, "pointed down range."  Well, this means PCC can start pointed and aimed on any target.  Lots of designers didn't specify a PCC start at all, which means the PCC shooter can do whatever they want.  Starting aimed on a target, albeit enjoyably fast, requires little skill to even separate the PCC shooters within their own division, but REALLY leaves the pistol times in the dust.  Low ready is almost the same.  The point is, specify something, or there is too much of an advantage

 

Nearly all classifiers have gone to "stock on belt," which I personally think is the best.  Like the pistol draw, this takes a slight bit of skill and practice to do well.  Not quite as easy as it looks to do fast, accurate, and consistant.  After a level 2 match this year, the largest club here has really started doing interesting things that pose interesting challenges.  For one, some stages call for stock on belt, facing something specific, such as a particular popper, target, or prop.  The "muzzle on X" was popular for a while, but they now usually include toe/heels on a mark too so the PCC shooter doesn't get to stretch left or right of the mark as far as he can reach with the tip of the muzzle touching the X.  One stage last month had PCC muzzle touching rear fault line, that was interesting.  The worse I've seen was standing in a 3 foot square with a wall in front with the X about six inches off the ground - was difficult for a few guys to get into that position and maintain balance.

 

Try not to get too caught up in trying to equal PCC to the pistol.  They are just way too different, and yeah, everyone looks at the overall scores at the end of the day, but really its division competition.  I believe stock on belt is as equivalent to a pistol draw as it gets.   Barrel/table starts really do even things out, especially if an unloaded start.  Unloaded start can be a real pain for PCC if the shooter hasn't practiced it or tries to rush just a little too much.  As rowdyb said, you can also start em facing up range from a barrel/table start if you prefer.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Hammer002

[gerritm]

At the Lucas Oil match they put a target directly in front of you on the ground much like at steel challenge matches. Can just be a spray painted X. Start position was low ready barrel aimed at the target. Tended to even out the starts. If there is a solid wall or door start put an X for the barrel to touch. Table starts are good for those type of stages.

 

gerritm

[Hammer002]

4 minutes ago, gerritm said:

At the Lucas Oil match they put a target directly in front of you on the ground much like at steel challenge matches. Can just be a spray painted X. Start position was low ready barrel aimed at the target. Tended to even out the starts. If there is a solid wall or door start put an X for the barrel to touch. Table starts are good for those type of stages.

 

gerritm

 

Did they specify having to have the start target in front of you, or could you stand left or right of it so long as not to break the 180?  Missed that match and have been regretting it ever since, by the way!  Intend not to make that mistake again next year.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Hammer002

[gerritm]

You could stand or have your body pointed or faced however you wanted as long as the barrel was pointed at the target. Target was directly in front of you maybe 3/4 feet away. I tended to turn my body to face the first target I was shooting. You did have a start line or XX for your feet.

 

Great match and they are talking about a Lucas Oil PCC series. Not sure how they are going to set it up, but with regional matches, possibly points, & qualifying. Will be good for the sport. Excellent sponsor & company.

 

gerritm

Edited September 21, 2017 by gerritm

[Hammer002]

40 minutes ago, gerritm said:

You could stand or have your body pointed or faced however you wanted as long as the barrel was pointed at the target. Target was directly in front of you maybe 3/4 feet away. I tended to turn my body to face the first target I was shooting. You did have a start line or XX for your feet.

 

Great match and they are talking about a Lucas Oil PCC series. Not sure how they are going to set it up, but with regional matches, possibly points, & qualifying. Will be good for the sport. Excellent sponsor & company.

 

gerritm

 

I cant remember her name, but the woman that works directly with the owner comes down to our level 2 matches Lucas Oil sponsers, and she has been saying they want to get big into the sport.  Thanks for the info, already looking forward to that match next year, bet it grows by a large margin.

[Dlister70]

12 hours ago, Flatland Shooter said:

You could always have the shooter start outside the fault line so that the first thing all would need to do is move inside the fault lines.  This could be just a single step or it could be a few yards away.  

 

Edit to add: If you will be designing stages on a regular basis, take a look at tridentstagedesigner.com     I'm not associated with the site but do have access.  In the past I used PowerPoint for stages and it was cumbersome to say the least.  The Trident tools, along with giving you access to a lot of stages prepared by others, allows you to design your own or customize their stages with minimal hassle.

 

I hadn't thought about starting them a few yards away!  That would be a good equalizer in terms of time spent getting on first target.

 

I have to second the Trident stage design website.  That is where I designed all the stages for our first match, and it was a very intuitive way to get stages built.  I did switch to Power Point for the next match, due to some limitations with Trident, but I think I got my money's worth out of the nominal fee that Trident charges for a year of service.  I'd probably still be using it if there was a way to draw straight walls!  I contacted the developer about putting in straight walls and he told me to just modify my course so that the walls were diagonal.  I switched to Power Point instead because it wasn't a problem putting in the straight walls, and once I got used to it and got a template page built with all of the props that I wanted, it was almost as easy to drag and drop stuff to build the stage.  

[rowdyb]

like men's and women's tee positions in golf. or handicap stations shooting trap.

 

near set of X's for pistol shooters. piece of wood pounded in ground 3' away, probably out of the stage boundary, with another set of X's for pcc. that seems easy to set up and apply across a lot of stage designs.

[Dlister70]

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

Try not to get too caught up in trying to equal PCC to the pistol.  They are just way too different, and yeah, everyone looks at the overall scores at the end of the day, but really its division competition.  

 

Good point.  I don't think that the starting position is going to change having 6 PCC shooters in the top 10 overall at the end of the day!  I was just trying to cost each shooter a comparable amount of time at the start, and after that it's up to their own trigger and foot speed.  

[Dlister70]

12 minutes ago, rowdyb said:

like men's and women's tee positions in golf. or handicap stations shooting trap.

 

near set of X's for pistol shooters. piece of wood pounded in ground 3' away, probably out of the stage boundary, with another set of X's for pcc. that seems easy to set up and apply across a lot of stage designs.

 

Could you really do that?  I didn't think that I could start them off at different distances from each other, but honestly, I'm not sure.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Dlister70

[Flatland Shooter]

As long as all the PCC shooters have the same start position it should be OK.  Just be reasonable about it.

[Trent1k1]

You COULD start all PCC shooters with mags unloaded and bullets on a barrel.  Sort of a jerk move though.

 

If you are worried about equity between a rifle and pistol, change the stage design.

 

1. For instance, throw a prone position in at some point.  Those 43 round mags get in the way of the ground and force a mag change to a smaller mag.

2. Put a narrow slot in a wall to shoot through.  Offset from the red dot to the barrel is tough, potentially making them turn the rifle 90 degrees (not practiced by many)

3. Lots of close walls with huge transitions from the left to right side

4. Very close head-shots with a no-shoot just below the head.

5.  Hard leans around a wall to the left (or right side) forcing a balancing act or for them to go weak hand.

6.  Force a stage to be shot from right to left (for most right handers, this is tougher)

 

At our range, if nothing is declared for PCC, Buttstock on belt facing downrange.

 

There have been some cool ideas mentioned though already in this thread.

[Hammer002]

1 hour ago, Dlister70 said:

 

Could you really do that?  I didn't think that I could start them off at different distances from each other, but honestly, I'm not sure.

 

No, you can't do that. Everyone shoots the same stage. PCC just has to have specifics due to lack of holster also leading to how held.  Loaded vs unloaded, start position, etc should all be the same within USPSA rules.  And one thing my local club found in trying to challenge my PCC was I got pretty good at a lot of the things mentioned here, but the same things that aren't much fun for PCC aren't much fun for anyone.  Lol. 

 

In the time I have been doing PCC, I have come to a couple conclusions.  There are some advantages both ways, PCC over pistol and vise versa.  PCC excels at distance and lack of reloads.  Pistol excels in movement and direction changes and close quarters.  Overall, I actually think an open gun is supposed to beat the PCC far more often than not.  I think it's all going to even out.  Single stack is never going to compete with PCC anymore than it does with open or limited guns.  Our club has come away from worrying about it too much and is getting back to normal stage designs not centered around slowing the PCC.  

 

Everything trent mentioned is absolutely true if you are looking for ways to mess with those pesky PCC shooters though.  (Except everybody's mags would have to start unloaded and I bet it's faster to load one big mag than five small ones and find places for them as you go)

Edited September 21, 2017 by Hammer002

[Trent1k1]

I do have a PCC, and have been shooting it for the last month.  It is a blast, but different for sure.

 

 

[rowdyb]

Just to be sure, I am no PCC hater and do it myself from time to time. And I to believe that most times, "shooting is shooting" and just not think about the gun and the results. Think about good actions, good stages and such, which are independent of the gun.

 

ps-yes that is a 50rnd 9mm AR drum. take that all you mag couplers!

Edited September 21, 2017 by rowdyb

[perttime]

Are you also going to design so that revolvers are not at a disadvantage?

 

[ChuckS]

Wile I do have a less than kind opinion of MDs who go out of their way to enhance the experience of PCC shooters, I do have to ask this question:

2 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

 

No, you can't do that. Everyone shoots the same stage.  ---snip---

What rule number supports this? I could not find any in a somewhat brief search.

 

Later,

Chuck

 

PS: But I did find a rule that outlaws classifiers!

 

1.1.4 Diversity – USPSA shooting challenges are diverse. While it is not necessary to construct new courses for each match, no single course of fire must be repeated to allow its use to be considered a definitive measure of USPSA shooting skills.

[brisix]

I just shot the Oklahoma Sectional in PCC.   The standard start position for PCC was stock on belt, muzzle level with the ground and parallel to side berms.   For me this is a pretty good standard start position.   I don't think low ready should be used. 

[Flatland Shooter]

18 minutes ago, brisix said:

 I don't think low ready should be used. 

 

Just curious why low ready should not be used.

[Hammer002]

2 hours ago, ChuckS said:

Wile I do have a less than kind opinion of MDs who go out of their way to enhance the experience of PCC shooters, I do have to ask this question:

What rule number supports this? I could not find any in a somewhat brief search.

 

Later,

Chuck

 

PS: But I did find a rule that outlaws classifiers!

 

1.1.4 Diversity – USPSA shooting challenges are diverse. While it is not necessary to construct new courses for each match, no single course of fire must be repeated to allow its use to be considered a definitive measure of USPSA shooting skills.

 

U need a specific rule to tell you you can't make a stage that says "everyone starts with toes on Xs, PCC starts in the parking lot"?  I usually respect your opinion, but come on.  I'm not a rule nazi, so I can't pick a sentence with a number associated to it in a book off the top of my head, nor am I willing to comb the book looking for something to support my common sense statement, but I'm pretty confident if we are all shooting 8 stages for the day they have to be the same 8.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Hammer002

[Hammer002]

3 hours ago, rowdyb said:

Just to be sure, I am no PCC hater and do it myself from time to time. And I to believe that most times, "shooting is shooting" and just not think about the gun and the results. Think about good actions, good stages and such, which are independent of the gun.

 

ps-yes that is a 50rnd 9mm AR drum. take that all you mag couplers!

 

Thats awesome

[ChuckS]

19 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

U need a specific rule to tell you you can't make a stage that says "everyone starts with toes on Xs, PCC starts in the parking lot"?  I usually respect your opinion, but come on.  I'm not a rule nazi, so I can't pick a sentence with a number associated to it in a book off the top of my head, nor am I willing to comb the book looking for something to support my common sense statement, but I'm pretty confident if we are all shooting 8 stages for the day they have to be the same 8.

There are some folks out there that may think having a totally different start position for PCC is a good idea. What  if you tell them they can't do that and they ask "why"? If it is a USPSA match, the answer has to be in the rule book.

[MikeBurgess]

26 minutes ago, Hammer002 said:

 

U need a specific rule to tell you you can't make a stage that says "everyone starts with toes on Xs, PCC starts in the parking lot"?  I usually respect your opinion, but come on.  I'm not a rule nazi, so I can't pick a sentence with a number associated to it in a book off the top of my head, nor am I willing to comb the book looking for something to support my common sense statement, but I'm pretty confident if we are all shooting 8 stages for the day they have to be the same 8.

Ahh, but we are NOT all shooting the same match, we are shooting 8 individual matches that happen to be concurrently run on the same stages. Each division is only competing against itself.