RJH Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 I did not care for carry ops until they changes the rules to allow bigger mags, now it seems more appealing to me. However, I wish the powers that be would take it a little further and just change the division to "Unlimited". The rules would simply be: pistol, 9mm minimum, minor only. I think by making it minor only the problems with plastic open guns would go away, so all guns could be truly competitive. Don't give me the indian not the arrow line, cause only 2011s win in open. (I know EG is kinda an exception to this, but he don't shoot plastic either). Also it would get rid of the restrictions in Carry ops and Open, which would drive development. I think in a few years a division like this would be the dominate division in USPSA eclipsing limited and open. Discuss PS I don't own a gun that would fit in "my" new division, but would make one:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 Open is pretty much already Unlimited. If you want to shoot a particular gun with 140mm mags and shoot minor, you can in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 I like it. I think Open is too restrictive as it is. Why limit magazines to 170mm if we allow 9mm/38 to make major? Why can't I shoot major PF in limited with a 9mm? The way you're talking, the hypothetical unlimited division would apply the new PCC rules to a handgun platform. Interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HCH Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 7 minutes ago, HoMiE said: Open is pretty much already Unlimited. If you want to shoot a particular gun with 140mm mags and shoot minor, you can in Open. I don't follow. Why would I shoot minor in open with 140's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IronArcher Posted August 29, 2017 Share Posted August 29, 2017 I wouldn't make any changes to open.I think CO is pretty good as is.... wouldn't want to add comps or race holsters etc.... if anything, maybe magwells, but with very few reloads, who cares. Just keep it minor.That said, I would have been perfectly happy with Stock sized mags loaded to capacity. As for 9mm major, I don't think it should matter what cartridge or caliber you start with, just the bullet weight X velocity / 1000. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 29, 2017 Author Share Posted August 29, 2017 I guess part of this is that we have 1 race division: open, 1 kinda race division: limited, 3 stockish divisions: SS, pro, and revolver. I leave out lim 10 cause its L10:-) and PCC cause it is a rifle. So that leaves us with carry ops, a kind of bastard division with all the pia rules of production and some of the fun of the race divisions. So that is another reason I like this idea, is get rid of the rules that drag it down and have another true race division, but with limiting PF to minor, less expensive guns would be able to compete. Also ammo would cost less and guns would last longer. No mag limits and run what you brung. Sounds like a good time to me, for not a lot of money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 What you are describing is essentially a Minor PF version of IPSC's Modified division which failed due mostly to escalating costs. I think it's a bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAP Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 i currently shoot carry optics and I like it the way it is. The only change I wouldn't mind seeing is the addition of a small magwell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hitman_usmc Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I agree with the small maxwell and would add the ability to change the trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 35 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: What you are describing is essentially a Minor PF version of IPSC's Modified division which failed due mostly to escalating costs. I think it's a bad idea. Actually it would be nothing like that. No boxes, no mag limits, and no major. The no major thing would be a driving factor in keeping cost down. Major is hard on guns in open, I would wager that open guns have the shortest life span of all divisions and modified was probably right there with it. Mag limits drive the cost of mags up, if there was no limit, no one would buy expensive mags with expensive internals, they could just buy a glock 33 rounder or equivalent from some other manufacturer. Also no boxes to fit in so no need to buy specialized parts to make that happen. Also it would eliminate the "no stipiling here, no tape here, is this hammer, trigger, etc. legal" that is a headache in the production based divisions now. So no, modified it ain't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, hitman_usmc said: I agree with the small maxwell and would add the ability to change the trigger. I think you are the third or fourth person that would like a magwell, and the first on the trigger. This is my point, people like to tinker with guns, and this is a racing sport where people like to go fast so, I am in favor of a more affordable race division, instead of another kinda stock division. Instead of fighting it, lets race (in a more affordable way) :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 So is your proposal essentially an Open gun (scope, compensator, unlimited magazine length) and triggers can be SA, DA/SA or DAO ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, BritinUSA said: So is your proposal essentially an Open gun (scope, compensator, unlimited magazine length) and triggers can be SA, DA/SA or DAO ? MINOR only though, but now you are getting it :-) When you take major out of the equation, plastic guns are no longer at the disadvantage they are in open now. The last 3 handgun divisions, 4 ii you include carry ops have been somewhat Production/carry gun based, with plenty of restrictions. Seems like the F1 of shooting sports already has plenty of Yugos, it is time for a corvette division Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I don't see how this would be affordable. If you want to pursue this then you need to write up the proposed rules and send them to your Area Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 glock 17 500, threaded barrel 150, comp 85, scope mount 135, c more 239, mage 30 each, vanek trigger 150= $1300 with 2 mags. That was super quick internet shopping and could probably be done cheaper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mont1120 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 I just shot my first CO match (learn to find the dot division) last weekend and really enjoyed it. Though I prefer L10,( yes I said it), CO was a totally different division, and it is not like Open at all. I agree with a magwell since the mag restrictions were eased, and allow for a change in the trigger. I do not feel like tossing 4K into the Open division, and CO fills the gap for a production gun with a slide mounted dot that is great for us with aging eyes that do not want to put major dollars into an Open gun. PCC on the other hand............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviSS Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Small magwells in CO kinda make sense, since many companies are now offering small "concealed carry" type magwells. When does Carry Optics become a real division and lose it's provisional status? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 15 hours ago, HCH said: The way you're talking, the hypothetical unlimited division would apply the new PCC rules to a handgun platform. Interesting. This was another big part in this idea. I just looked and at several major matches (area and national championships) and in any that had both PCC and Carry ops, there were more PCC shooters. In several matches many more PCC shooters, and it has been provisional for less than half the time as Carry ops. I think the run what you brung nature, combined with minor only scoring is a big reason for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJH Posted August 30, 2017 Author Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) 58 minutes ago, LeviSS said: Small magwells in CO kinda make sense, since many companies are now offering small "concealed carry" type magwells. When does Carry Optics become a real division and lose it's provisional status? Hopefully after USPSA realizes it's mistake and changes it to unlimited :-) Pretty sure participation would skyrocket Edited August 30, 2017 by RJH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoMiE Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 15 hours ago, HCH said: I don't follow. Why would I shoot minor in open with 140's? If someone wants to shoot a 9 minor 2011, they can do it in Open already. I don't think Carry Optics should be an Open minor or unlimited division. I kinda wish they would go back to the 10 round limit for CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 Open major. Open minor. Limited major. Limited minor. 10 round totally 100% stock division. Revo. There ya go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mushki25 Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 9 minutes ago, rowdyb said: Open major. Open minor. Limited major. Limited minor. 10 round totally 100% stock division. Revo. There ya go. I mostly agree with this. I know I could completely be happy with this. The only improvement I can suggest is get rid of major and minor sub divisions and have everyone run together. The game is getting to be too diluted the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waktasz Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 19 minutes ago, rowdyb said: Open major. Open minor. Limited major. Limited minor. 10 round totally 100% stock division. Revo. There ya go. So kill Production then. Good idea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 logistic of making sure every gun is 100% stock...IPSC production rule is about as close to that as you can get. Even then, you can't check every part of every gun to comply being 100% OEM... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racerba Posted August 30, 2017 Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) 18 hours ago, RJH said: I did not care for carry ops until they changes the rules to allow bigger mags, now it seems more appealing to me. However, I wish the powers that be would take it a little further and just change the division to "Unlimited". The rules would simply be: pistol, 9mm minimum, minor only. I think by making it minor only the problems with plastic open guns would go away, so all guns could be truly competitive. Don't give me the indian not the arrow line, cause only 2011s win in open. (I know EG is kinda an exception to this, but he don't shoot plastic either). Also it would get rid of the restrictions in Carry ops and Open, which would drive development. I think in a few years a division like this would be the dominate division in USPSA eclipsing limited and open. Discuss Even Open division has some limits...why would you not want any limits in CO? Seems that Open should be the division with no limits if any division should have no limit restrictions... Production is pretty dominant as it is, why would you think CO the way it is would not be dominating? I like it the way it is now...no changes... Edited August 30, 2017 by racerba added last line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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