IHAVEGAS Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 17 hours ago, nuidad said: That's the issue here. Is the Make Ready location the same as the Start location? 8.7.1 only mentions the Make Ready location...I'm not sure you can stretch that to also mean the Start location. 8.3.1.1 "Once the "make ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start position etc etc The rulebook would really really suck if someone tried to make it cover every conceivable interpretation and precisely detail all of the do's and do nots. Seems like intent is clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuidad Posted July 5, 2017 Author Share Posted July 5, 2017 My confusion could have been resolved with something simple in the rules like"...the RO will designate the Make Ready location..." But since it doesn't say that, I see the need for a practical application of discretion on the ROs part in determining the MR location. I get it. As I said, if this is the general practice...I'm good. General area of the Start location. Couple of steps to get a sight picture…all good. Thanks all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poppa Bear Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 Most RO's and shooters are pretty reasonable. With the exception of Open and CO most can easily Make Ready at the start location. Open and CO might need to step to the side to check their optic if no visible targets are available downrange from the start location. I have never had a shooter move more than a couple of steps before a target becomes available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IL-SIG Posted July 5, 2017 Share Posted July 5, 2017 On 7/4/2017 at 3:12 PM, IHAVEGAS said: 8.3.1.1 "Once the "make ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start position etc etc To me this seems clear. The competitor should be in the start position prior to the RO issuing the Make Ready command. Once the command is given, they may take one step. However, being reasonable, if a competitor requests to take more than one step and is under the direction of the RO, I see no issue. In addition, it must be consistent throughout the match. Each shooter should have the same opportunity. If a shooter disregards a non-approval from the RO for additional steps, they would be subject to at a minimum of a procedural under 10.2.2 or potentially a DQ under 10.6.1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 "Referencing 8.3.1.1, unless the WSB specifies some make ready location other than the start location, such as placing a gun on a barrel or table or in a drawer, the make ready location is the same as the start location. Writing permission to take a few steps away into the WSB violates 8.3.1.1 and is not allowed. It’s incumbent upon all RO’s to be aware of and enforce this rule. " Apparently Troy McManus reads Enos? From the latests USPSA Downrange email. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 41 minutes ago, IHAVEGAS said: "Referencing 8.3.1.1, unless the WSB specifies some make ready location other than the start location, such as placing a gun on a barrel or table or in a drawer, the make ready location is the same as the start location. Writing permission to take a few steps away into the WSB violates 8.3.1.1 and is not allowed. It’s incumbent upon all RO’s to be aware of and enforce this rule. " Apparently Troy McManus reads Enos? From the latests USPSA Downrange email. Ya think?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff40 Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 From Troy Mcmanus-- o Referencing 8.3.1.1, unless the WSB specifies some make ready location other than the start location, such as placing a gun on a barrel or table or in a drawer, the make ready location is the same as the start location. Writing permission to take a few steps away into the WSB violates 8.3.1.1 and is not allowed. It’s incumbent upon all RO’s to be aware of and enforce this rule Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff40 Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 (edited) NOW, I'd like to know the PENALTY for taking more than a step away from the Make Ready position on the LAMR command?? 10.2.2?? Edited July 6, 2017 by jeff40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 In all the shooters I have started I've never seen this to be an issue. As to a penalty, that would depend on the shooters actions after I tell them to return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schutzenmeister Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 Ultimately, there is the potential for 10.6.1 as the shooter is likely failing to comply with the reasonable directions of a Match Official. Extreme - Yes. But if the RO actually tells you you cannot do that and you do ... well, it's on you! I had to tag a shoot like that at the Nationals some years back and, guess what ... The RM (Troy) upheld it. (He also drew his gun while doing it WITHOUT my having actually given the MR command ...) When I see a shooter starting to leave the position I call them back and inform them that is not allowed. Rarely, I get an argument ... But the rule book is my friend. I show it to them if they insist I'm wrong. (That's VERY rare that someone asks me to support it. But I can, and have.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 6, 2017 Share Posted July 6, 2017 1 hour ago, jeff40 said: NOW, I'd like to know the PENALTY for taking more than a step away from the Make Ready position on the LAMR command?? 10.2.2?? Good question. I assume you are right. While we are at it, based on the rulebook, what can you do when a shooter is repeatedly not making a reasonable effort to help reset a stage? 10.6.1 ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 3 hours ago, IHAVEGAS said: Good question. I assume you are right. While we are at it, based on the rulebook, what can you do when a shooter is repeatedly not making a reasonable effort to help reset a stage? 10.6.1 ? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 On 7/6/2017 at 11:42 AM, jeff40 said: NOW, I'd like to know the PENALTY for taking more than a step away from the Make Ready position on the LAMR command?? 10.2.2?? how would 10.2.2 come into effect? that addresses not following the WSB and Make ready is not part of the WSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 16 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: how would 10.2.2 come into effect? that addresses not following the WSB and Make ready is not part of the WSB. On 7/6/2017 at 1:38 PM, jeff40 said: From Troy Mcmanus-- o Referencing 8.3.1.1, unless the WSB specifies some make ready location other than the start location, such as placing a gun on a barrel or table or in a drawer, the make ready location is the same as the start location. Writing permission to take a few steps away into the WSB violates 8.3.1.1 and is not allowed. It’s incumbent upon all RO’s to be aware of and enforce this rule Start location is same as make ready location (except as noted) and is part of WSB, so, since A=B and A is covered then B is covered. My best guess anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 What's "LAMR" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rowdyb Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 31 minutes ago, ChuckS said: What's "LAMR" ? an idpa command haa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff40 Posted July 7, 2017 Share Posted July 7, 2017 1 hour ago, rowdyb said: an idpa command haa Hah! You're right! They stole it from USPSA, then we tossed it. Guess I've been around too long and have trouble breaking old habits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuidad Posted July 8, 2017 Author Share Posted July 8, 2017 (edited) On 7/6/2017 at 6:05 AM, IHAVEGAS said: "Referencing 8.3.1.1, unless the WSB specifies some make ready location other than the start location, such as placing a gun on a barrel or table or in a drawer, the make ready location is the same as the start location. Writing permission to take a few steps away into the WSB violates 8.3.1.1 and is not allowed. It’s incumbent upon all RO’s to be aware of and enforce this rule. " Apparently Troy McManus reads Enos? From the latests USPSA Downrange email. Just so I'm clear: MR location is the Start location, Barrel or table starts will, logically, have a different MR and Start location, Written permission in the WSB for additional steps to take a sight picture is not permitted, (??) The RO could grant some movement away from the Start location under 8.3.1.1 but not for a sight picture. 8.3.1.1 Once the "Make Ready" command has been given, the competitor must not move away from the start location prior to issuance of the "Start Signal" without the prior approval, and under the direct supervision, of the Range Officer. Edited July 8, 2017 by nuidad Clarification Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 On 7/7/2017 at 1:57 PM, IHAVEGAS said: Start location is same as make ready location (except as noted) and is part of WSB, so, since A=B and A is covered then B is covered. My best guess anyway. I don't agree with your logic, But I also don't agree with Troys logic. The only penalty I could see being applied to leaving wherever you were given the Make Ready command would be a 10.5.1 DQ and that would only be if the competitor drew their gun and ran "away" from the RO far enough for the RO to feel the shooter was no longer under his direct supervision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: I don't agree with your logic, But I also don't agree with Troys logic. This is the internet, nobody expects anything to be settled with logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester121 Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 I thought 8.3.1.1 came into being because guys were turning on their dot and then jaunting around the entire field course taking sight pictures of every single target from every view. Ain't nobody got time for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckS Posted July 10, 2017 Share Posted July 10, 2017 1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said: This is the internet, nobody expects anything to be settled with logic. Very logical... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 I thought 8.3.1.1 came into being because guys were turning on their dot and then jaunting around the entire field course taking sight pictures of every single target from every view. Ain't nobody got time for that. Yes But unfortunatly there is no penalty prescribed so if they do it we loose more time telling them they can't and arguing over the non existent penalty. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted July 11, 2017 Share Posted July 11, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, MikeBurgess said: Yes But unfortunatly there is no penalty prescribed so if they do it we loose more time telling them they can't and arguing over the non existent penalty. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk Meh, if it ever really became a manhood measurement thing instead of just another cyber space hypothetical I'd call it a procedural under 8.3.1.1/10.2.2 . The shooter could choose to squabble it out with the rm and if I was overridden then that would be ok. Edited July 11, 2017 by IHAVEGAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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