wanttolearn Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 (edited) I have, over the past several years, taken classes which advocated very different strategies for shooting more accurately and more quickly. These techniques have ranged anywhere from fully extended to slightly bent to externally rotated arms/elbows. Is there a recent general consensus among successful competitors. I would like to preserve my elbows (anatomically/functionally) and yet would certainly love to improve my shooting...both with respect to time as well as accuracy. Currently i shoot with somewhat bent elbows and i would consider myself a fairly accurate shooter (small tight groups) ...i do however shoot slowly. thank you Edited May 21, 2017 by wanttolearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 21, 2017 Share Posted May 21, 2017 There is no question that the externally rotated shoulder position is the strongest, most stable, and safest position for that joint to occupy while in flexion. The position of the elbow usually follows the position of the shoulder. That being said, just adopting that position won't make you faster or more accurate. If you want to get faster and more accurate, you have to push yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer002 Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) Ok, so I am usually here to soak up knowledge and not post, but I actually have an answer to this one. The type of training you are talking about is universal for new shooters and the tactical community. The elbows locked and rotated in, shoulders up out of their sockets, death grip on gun approach is the best way to teach a new shooter how to immediately see results. Therefore, it has widely been trademarked into the "tactical" world of training and then law enforcement. (Ask me how I know). That approach is the best way to teach someone new to shooting and expect them to have half a chance at success if the need to shoot ever arises and they haven't practiced since the last class or qual. The tactical community has really taken it and ran and make lots of money teaching someone who has never touched a firearm or has little to no real experience with one a simple way of doing it that immediately after shows results. When I ventured into the competitive world I immediately realized those techniques were near useless. The rigid, tight technique works well for standing erect in one place shooting one nonmoving target. The competitive world demands FAR more movement and range of motion. Not to mention practice. What I find most common in good shooter's advice is finding what is right for YOU and PRACTICE. There are many greatly successful people who do things against the grain so to speak, but its because they practice it that way every day. Enos actually goes into this to great extent in his book, and I have always taken his approach - I want to build a foundation for what works for me based on what my body does well naturally. Then practice it enough to depend on it. In short, I think the original question really can be broken down into self defense/tactical posture vs competition. They are two completely separate worlds with little that blends well at high levels of either. Edited May 22, 2017 by Hammer002 grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanttolearn Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 interesting perspectives...i really appreciate the expressed insighst and experiences..... would love to hear more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lgh Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 7 hours ago, Hammer002 said: There are many greatly successful people who do things against the grain so to speak, but its because they practice it that way every day. Enos actually goes into this to great extent in his book, and I have always taken his approach - I want to build a foundation for what works for me based on what my body does well naturally. Then practice it enough to depend on it. Right on the money. My formal training is in tactical shooting but even then my instructors - very good ones- never put someone in a pigeon hole, especially in advanced classes. There are many ways to skin a cat and if someone is doing well it is probably because they found out what works for them. Don't change it, learn from it. The fundamentals are pretty simple - 1. identify the target, 2. align the gun on the target, 3. keep the gun aligned on the target until the shot breaks. Within that framework, there are lots of variables including considerable variation among the people shooting the gun and the guns themselves. A 250# power lifter shooting a 1911 can have a different set of issues executing the fundamentals than a 120# horse jockey shooting a Glock. And then there is eye dominance, physical limitations, etc. BE and Ben Stoeger both write about their observations concerning what is actually important versus what is preached (especially preached on the Internet). A couple examples - muzzle rise doesn't actually effect your times very much and grip balance is more important for some than extreme grip pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanttolearn Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 thanks..that helps i guess if i really identify my concerns 1)i don't want to have long term problems with my joints in the future, it looks like the locked arms/elbows would take their toll. 2)i want to improve my speed, i'm told i rely too much on making sure my sights line up before taking the shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) I have to agree with @Jake Di Vita on this one. My elbows are slightly bent and externally rotated, so that my elbows are almost exactly the same distance apart as my shoulder sockets. In searching for as much grip pressure as possible, I find that a bent elbow and the "upper" thumb half of the palm rolled up and inward toward the other hand really lets me grip the gun hard, and use more than my finger/grip strength to do it. Involving the chest/deltoid/bicep/tricep in pressing my hands in toward each other helps put pressure on the gun. The best way to describe this is often to grip the gun with relaxed elbows and your regular grip, then try to roll the forearms inward and elbows outward to clamp down on the gun. Just a little bit of muscle tension really cranks down on the gun hard. With the elbows locked this isn't really possible, and it also means recoil is hammering directly on the shoulder and elbow joints instead of letting the arms become shock absorbers. I know several top shooters appear to shoot this way, but it isn't my personal preference. Edited May 22, 2017 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARMAGEDON Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 i have tried slightly bent and is working great for me as a rookie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 23 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said: I have to agree with @Jake Di Vita on this one. My elbows are slightly bent and externally rotated, so that my elbows are almost exactly the same distance apart as my shoulder sockets. In searching for as much grip pressure as possible, I find that a bent elbow and the "upper" thumb half of the palm rolled up and inward toward the other hand really lets me grip the gun hard, and use more than my finger/grip strength to do it. Involving the chest/deltoid/bicep/tricep in pressing my hands in toward each other helps put pressure on the gun. The best way to describe this is often to grip the gun with relaxed elbows and your regular grip, then try to roll the forearms inward and elbows outward to clamp down on the gun. Just a little bit of muscle tension really cranks down on the gun hard. With the elbows locked this isn't really possible, and it also means recoil is hammering directly on the shoulder and elbow joints instead of letting the arms become shock absorbers. I know several top shooters appear to shoot this way, but it isn't my personal preference. I understand "elbows slightly bent", but I have no idea what you mean exactly by an externally rotated shoulder.........I need a pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MemphisMechanic Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) Arms hanging naturally at sides is a fairly neutral shoulder position. In physical training / exercise physiology, internal rotation and external rotation are descriptions for the two directions the shoulder joint can be moved. Exeternally rotated is just that: rotate the shoulder ball and socket so that the thumb rotates away from body centerline. Internal rotation is then opposite, obviously. Edited May 23, 2017 by MemphisMechanic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerTrace Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I guess I've always internally rotated my shoulders then.......thanks for clearing that up for my Country a**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4045 Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 I don't know about the terminology, but I use elbows slightly bent and thumbs pointed at target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 2 hours ago, MemphisMechanic said: Arms hanging naturally at sides is a fairly neutral shoulder position. In physical training / exercise physiology, internal rotation and external rotation are descriptions for the two directions the shoulder joint can be moved. Exeternally rotated is just that: rotate the shoulder ball and socket so that the thumb rotates away from body centerline. Internal rotation is then opposite, obviously. To add a bit more to this. Arms hanging straight down would be considered neutral. Anywhere forward of neutral is considered flexion with arms straight over your head being end range flexion. Anywhere rear of neutral is extension. The most stable position of the shoulder in all ranges of flexion is external rotation. The most stable position of the shoulder in all ranges of extension is internal rotation. In order to effectively generate stabilizing torque forces in joints like the shoulder and hip, it is also important to have the head of the humerus/femur pressed to the back of the shoulder/hip joint so there is enough slack in the joint capsule to enable it to be effectively wound up, which puts the joint into it's best fit position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 ^^ More confused than ever. A diagram / picture of this would surely help. The vocabulary you use is all Greek (spoken backwards, underwater) to me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 It's not really something that can be easily illustrated in a picture. Here's a short video that touches on some of the concepts. ( part 2 here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fastluck13 Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Think about it like dumbbell flys but with a gun in between your hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benchmstr Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 I don't even know anymore...I see straight arm guys rocking the hell out of it..then I see bent arm guys like frank proctor killing it....whatever you prefer, just practice it a lot the bench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 3 hours ago, fastluck13 said: Think about it like dumbbell flys but with a gun in between your hands. There's a lot more to it than that. 4 minutes ago, benchmstr said: I don't even know anymore...I see straight arm guys rocking the hell out of it..then I see bent arm guys like frank proctor killing it....whatever you prefer, just practice it a lot the bench For sure you can make just about anything work if you practice it enough. There is something to be said about aligning your technique so that it follows the same principles that govern the fundamentals of human movement. Does this make a big difference for an average B class hobbyist shooter? No, not really. Where it does make a difference is at the elite level where hundredths of a second can be the difference between winning and losing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benchmstr Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 39 minutes ago, Jake Di Vita said: There's a lot more to it than that. For sure you can make just about anything work if you practice it enough. There is something to be said about aligning your technique so that it follows the same principles that govern the fundamentals of human movement. Does this make a big difference for an average B class hobbyist shooter? No, not really. Where it does make a difference is at the elite level where hundredths of a second can be the difference between winning and losing. I agree..i switch back in forth...recently had a bicep reattached at the shoulder...It still hurts and fatigues and I have to switch to the bearable position mid match/range visit. the problem is that the bearable position switches on me the bench Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Phil Posted May 24, 2017 Share Posted May 24, 2017 Wow. 19 posts. If you look at the pros shooting even they have changed their shooting positions (stance, grip, elbows, thumbs, etc) over the years. (no, not all, but most). There is even a Japanese guy that shoots with radically bent elbows. Whatever works and feels good. JM has been shooting for something like 45 years. His elbows look okay. Locked elbows might exacerbate the recoil. Might not. I think your grip, forearms, body position, shoulders etc has more to do with recoil control. Watch some pros shoot and notice the times they are completely out of their stance, yet hit what they shoot at. (Sc/outer limits especially) Look how often their grip is faulty (poor draw, weak hand, etc) yet they still hit. Lately the thumbs have gotten a lot of notice, And the front finger hooking the trigger guard. Some shoot one way. Some another. Shoot how you feel good. Have fun! You're not out there to beat me. You're out there to have fun and beat you. IMHO That's all I get for $.02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wanttolearn Posted May 25, 2017 Author Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) it is fascinating...all the variability I was watching a Max Michel video and while it is difficult to ascertain how tight his grip is on the pistol (likely quite tight as the pistol maintains a very flat orientation while shooting) but his elbows look really relaxed/effortless bringing the pistol sight plane up to his sight line....not scrunching up or bringing his shoulders up to his ears. There seems to be a fluidity to his technique. Bruce Gray's going to be teaching a class in San Diego end of July, he was managing the Sig Team a while back along with Max Michel, hopefully i can gain more insight. Edited May 25, 2017 by wanttolearn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broncman Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Been watching and reading a lot of Max Michel and Ben Stoeger lately. I have always shot bent elbows, strong hand fairly straight. Last match I cranked up the speed for me and also cranked up the misses. I noticed I was having a lot of trouble on transitions and accurately getting back on target from barriers etc. Put away the ammo and went back to dry firing practice on some Stoeger and Michel drills. I noticed with straight arms, my transitions were more consistent and was easier to "snap" to where my eyes focused, with less over swing. Not quite a natural feel for me but practice will make muscle memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hupperware Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Been watching some JJ Ricaza stuff on FB, he's saying 45 degree angle on elbows... one of the fastest I've ever had the pleasure of shooting with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Mitch Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Work on your grip. Don't lock your elbows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnbu Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 This has been (and still is) a focus point. Far (FAR) from being an expert, but I have learned a bit trying to emulate the things explained here. The most impactual has been a slight change in elbow position. Hand grip is the standard thumbs forward, high hand position. After getting that and extending arms to the target, I found that rolling the elbows outward (slightly) allows for a LOT MORE inward palm to palm pressure on the gun. The impact has been a reduction in split times on Bill Drill. I ran 4 of them and was consistently in the range of 0.15 to 0.18 at 5 yards (none in the 0.2). The (CO) dot moves less and lands back on target quicker more consistently. I still need loads more improvement as the gun still isn't being "driven" forward hard enough as shown by a tendency to vertically string. But overall, it seems to be helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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