ErikW Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 This one is for the accomplished shooters of swingers and other moving targets, with iron sights. How well do you call the shots on moving targets compared to static targets? I ask because I got burned by a make-up shot on swinger recently, where it took a couple seconds for the swinger to come back into view so I could take my make up shot. When I looked scored the IPSC target, it was A-C-D, with the D in that impossible small area of the shoulder. It wasn't worth the time, but I didn't call a D, I called, well, a shitty shot that may have been a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 I'm tracking this one after last weekend's double mike on a swinger which I called as A-M-C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TriggerT Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 This is by far my weakest area. When the target is moving, I have a very hard time getting my focus to shift back to the sights, after originally indexing to the target. I would love to hear what some of the better shooters have for advice on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonub Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 just shoot it when its static- the swingers. for movers i never do lead since most are close. arount 15meters max. i use 180 heads so that i dont need to lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopalong Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 MCOLIVER, AMC, That was a Fast Little Hot rod back in the Day!!!!!! (sorry couldn't help it) Hopalong As far as swingers and turners, I will hold off on that as I'm not that good on them either !!!!! If you have access to one you may want to work on them once a week until you are comfortable with them though. (just a thought) Hopalong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Erik, If you called a shitty shot that may have been a miss...you did good by making it up. Yes it ended up being a hit, but there is always a small margin of error in calling your shots...even with the best in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 The only way I can overcome it is to not make crappy shots on swingers (note, I do not always accomplish this )... it's tough to hold the patience, but when you know they're there, they're there. The other thing is that most swingers take a second-plus to get back to shootable. Waiting a second and a half to make up a miss is a loser at 10 HF, and wasting two seconds is a loser at 7 HF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GRD Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 I had 3 A's on one swinger and 2A's and a C on another a couple weeks ago. I made up what I thought was at best a C on the first one (it was an A) and then fired that C at the second one that already had two A's on it. I was happy about the alphas, but with the extra time I totally blew the HF value on them. I can't call shots on moving targets to save my life. It just completely escapes me. Gag. - Gabe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted June 8, 2005 Share Posted June 8, 2005 Calling shots on swingers sometimes for me depends on the speed of the swinger. Most I try and treat like a static target because I believe that when the trigger is pulled the time it takes to for the bullet to get to the target basically makes it static. So on most swingers I just treat them like they are a static target. Fast swingers are definitly tougher to call shots on - but you've pretty much gotta watch the sights and execute the shots paying very close attention to where the target is at. On fast swingers it is not unusual for me to throw an extra if I was really uncomfortable with what I saw. Yes this happens on statics too - but it is not something I critisize myself for on really fast swingers. Making up the D was the right call. From what you're describing that D was simply a lucky miss. They happen all the time, don't discount the fact that you called a bad shot and you made it up. So what if it hit the paper? I've had plenty of times where I wasn't paying enough attention, saw an A and had a miss. If I call a miss, even if it ended up being an A, I feel like the make up is valid. I understand the whole hit factor analysis and determining whether or not to make up the shot. I don't subscribe to it though. There is something to be said for getting all your hits. For shooting good. Having a miss penalizes many shooters as much from a mental "Damn it I had a miss" as it does from a "down 15 points" standpoint. For some reason I can live with a second off here and a second off there. Stuff like that happens. A miss is something that bothers me more. I used to struggle with swingers until I dedicated one 300 round practice session to them. That was it. Somehow in that practice session it hit me like a ton of bricks - the swinger is basically a static when I pull the trigger. Call the shots like normal and go go go! J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 ... the swinger is basically a static when I pull the trigger. Call the shots like normal and go go go! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's pretty much what it comes down to. But until you've put in the time, for some swingers, it might help to disregard the D zone as part of the target. Before you shoot, time the swinger's cycle-time required for a make up shot (as a C), then weight that factor against the stage's factor. Which will help influence whether or not you shoot a make up shot, if you call a D shot on that swinger. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana James Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 I've never had problems on close swingers < 15 yds. Longer ones are trouble, but then everything longer is trouble. I don't slow down enough. I call the shot picture and move on. If my sight picture is where I want it when the trigger is pulled I move on. Don't know if that's the best, but I havn't had a swinger miss in ages, I mean stages, ha! ha! My first shot is almost always an A and my second isn't. That's because my first shot is at the static and my second is on the A too, but the target is moving by my second shot. I need to work on leading that second shot. For now it's OK, I get my hits. Too bad your not still at Richmond. I would like to go out and work on it with you. Heaven knows I need to work on it. Indy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 I fashioned a swinger out of an old stand fan so I can practice dry firing at it at home. I may need to dust off that thing again. I think my problem is the vision-focus thing. For longer range swingers, I just can't pull my focus back fast enough to "freeze" the sight pic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 (edited) I would like to go out and work on it with you. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> ... I'm going to have to start calling you two Ace and Gary. How about rather that sighting in at the point where it will be static and shooting twice at it, you sight in before that point and trap it twice. First on it's way to that point and second on it's way away from that point. That way you can keep your gun in the same place. Trapped shots are easier for me to call than tracked ones. edited for clarity (hopefully) Edited June 9, 2005 by short_round Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indiana James Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 you sight in at the point before and trap it twice Ah! That's the piece I'm missing. Something to work on. The list is up to 207 things to work on now! Thanks short round. Ok, but now I have to know that sight in point??? Sounds like physics to me!!! Indy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Lemme get this straight...no lead is required?? Shooting at TX star that's hauling ass, I need to shoot closer to the leading of the plate it seems. You have to lead a mover. How can swingers not need any lead? Or does that just make the problem too complicated? Signed, Thorougly Cornfused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 I lead the part I want to hit. As in, if I can see A-zone, I lead the edge of the A. If it's wayyy out there and all I can see is brown, I lead brown. If all I can see is the upper A/B box, I lead the edge of that. Seems to work for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
short_round Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 I lead the part I want to hit. As in, if I can see A-zone, I lead the edge of the A. If it's wayyy out there and all I can see is brown, I lead brown. If all I can see is the upper A/B box, I lead the edge of that. Seems to work for me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right ... so on the way down you "hit" the leading edge and on the way up you "hit" the other leading edge. The sight traps each edge from the same place. ... it probably becomes more effective the faster swinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 If you're shooting a swinger and you don't have the luxury of being able to shoot at it on the far side of it's travel (ie, moving slow), you're probably going to have to lead it a little bit. How much depends on the load you're shooting - for slow 230gr .45, you're going to have to lead a little more than fast 115gr .38 Super. How much is something you'll just have to experiment with - it depends on target speed, too. I've not found one yet where I felt like I had to aim outside the target border Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Lemme get this straight...no lead is required??... How can swingers not need any lead? If you can...shoot them when they are not moving (or, going lots slower). Before they change directions, they have to slow down...eventually they stop...then they speed back up as they go in the other direction. If you hit them the first time as they slow down (call that 90% to the apex of their swing), then hit them the second time as they come back (again, at about the 90% spot)...you can then shoot them as if they were a static target. Shooting them as if they were a static target allows the iron sighted shooter to have the vision back on the sights...to call the shot. Tracking the target and leading it is muuuuuuch tougher with irons sights. In fact, I wonder if (m)any should attempt it? Swingers aren't like shooting the Bianchi mover...where you can pace the target with your gun, then actually call a shot held on the leading edge of the 8-ring, for example. Swingers don't offer that kind of exposure time. I like to leave the tracking to the target-focused shooters (Open). (Erik, sounds like you called a hoper, then made it up. That is what is supposed to happen, right?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay1 Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Very nice thread about how to shoot these. After the last shoot thought about either making one or buying one to practice with. We'll see how many are at this weekend's shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolan Posted June 9, 2005 Share Posted June 9, 2005 Before the HoserCam I used to think I never tracked Swinging targets. I was pretty sure I just shot them as a static target. I got a chance to practice on a couple of fairly fast moving targets right after I built the first HoserCam and it was a real eye opener. I tracked the targets with the gun (both Open and Limited) much more than I would have thought. Nolan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 Happened again! A-M on a supposedly "called" A-C But this time I was using plated bullets and not my regular lead "diesel" load. Not having that much smoke made me see that my FS was relatively higher than usual on the 2nd shot. I guess I'm having grip issues and not the swingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 How about rather that sighting in at the point where it will be static and shooting twice at it, you sight in before that point and trap it twice. First on it's way to that point and second on it's way away from that point. That way you can keep your gun in the same place. Trapped shots are easier for me to call than tracked ones.<{POST_SNAPBACK}> I lead the part I want to hit. As in, if I can see A-zone, I lead the edge of the A. If it's wayyy out there and all I can see is brown, I lead brown. If all I can see is the upper A/B box, I lead the edge of that. Seems to work for me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Right ... so on the way down you "hit" the leading edge and on the way up you "hit" the other leading edge. The sight traps each edge from the same place. ... it probably becomes more effective the faster swinger. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I try to do the same, but so far I can't see fast enough to do that (trapping) if the swinger is behind a window with the presentation in midswing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j1b Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 I didn't allude to this in my post - but the gun does follow the target. It's a swinger - if you just held the gun still then of course you'd struggle. The thread was focused on calling the shots - I call the shots on the swinger the same as I call the shots on a static. Unless the circumstances are extreme, I don't lead any target much. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricW Posted June 12, 2005 Share Posted June 12, 2005 Thanks for the clarification Jack. For me, how to shoot the swinger/mover is integral to how I call the shot. (Not knowing what you're doing is really hell.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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